Suggestions for Division III Soccer, Academics, Diversity?

Parents Forum
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<p>
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I think the key to the post is that, presuming the athlete is deemed able to do the work academically, and assuming the same desirable level of potential athletic performance, the LOWER the academic stats of the applicant, the more likely it is that the athlete will be both recruited and accepted.

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<p>Here's the Catch-22. At the very selective schools, it is difficult to get accepted with getting a boost from some standout EC interest -- sports, music, science research, community service, politics, whatever. It takes good academic qualification AND something to hang your hat on and make your application stand out.</p>

<p>So, if your main EC is a sport and if you apply to a school where that sport isn't going to earn you any boost, then your application may be at a disadvantage. So, then it comes down to either having something else that stands out on your application or finding a school where your sports qualifications will earn a "boost" or finding a school where your academic qualifications alone will be sufficient to gain acceptance.</p>

<p>The reason that Williams dominates DIV III sports is not that they accept more low-band athletic tips than Amherst or Wesleyan -- they don't. The reason is that the college emphasizes athletics more heavily in budget allocations, campus culture, and overall admissions which, in turn, attracts an applicant pool that is more heavily tilted towards athletics. It's the second and third groups of recruited athletes that make Williams a "sports" school. However, the large number of athletic recruits in the admissions pool may not be advantageous for a given individual athlete, just like being a "science researcher" may not be the ideal hook at a school like MIT that attracts huge numbers of "science researcher" applications. Admissions odds increase when your individual app offers something the particular schools doesn't get as much of as they would like.</p>

<p>I would also note that, while most Div III schools have the same three rough categories of recruited athletes, the qualitative aspects of athletic admissions varies quite a bit. Some schools keep much more control of admissibility in the admissions office (i.e. does the student fit the school without consideration of athletics); others have a parallel admissions track through the athletic department that operates largely independent of the admissions office as long as the recruits fit the agreed upon distribution of academic qualifications. These differences continue to the campus culture with variations in how tolerant the faculty is of missing classes for athletics, how separated athletes are from the larger campus culture, etc. That's why I think it's important for a potential athlete to really consider how he or she views athletics in the context of the entire college experience.</p>

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<p>"My son was told by division 1 coaches that they wanted about 30 hours a week of practice. Soccer was a 10 or 11 month a year endeavor"</p>

<p>Dstark... the ncaa rule is 6 days, 21 hours of "organized" practice. Yes, most go beyond that with other methods. Informal training or club side are possibilities, but I also know of a couple players who were suspended by the Ncaa for a few games for being on a d3 roster and playing U19 premeire, so there is alot of room to do alot, provided you don't get caught. I was just reciting the offical line. Of course there's alot of room to waggle.</p>

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<p>Idad, good info. I could not agree with you more re: competitive schools where most students are "tipped" in some fashion, sports, arts, legacy, etc. Specific to NESCAC schools, would you have a take on how those members not requiring SAT scores allocate their athletic slots? Are they at more of an advantage as they have a bit more wiggle room?
To the OP, I believe most coaches at the schools being discussed use early decision to allocate the majority of their slots, so plan accordingly.</p>

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<p>Opie of Maybery2, I did not know that rule. I guess running on your own and hitting the weight room don't count. :) Playing college soccer is a very big commitment. You have to love it. Your post #18 is a very good post.</p>

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<p>
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To the OP, I believe most coaches at the schools being discussed use early decision to allocate the majority of their slots, so plan accordingly.

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<p>Absolutely. Just like coaches don't want to "waste" slots on kids who might get accepted without an athletic tip, they certainly don't want to waste slots on kids who are not committed to enrolling. That's why the athletic recruiting, especially for the 66 low-band tips, is so heavily weighted towards Early Decision. "I think I can get you accepted, but I need you to apply ED."</p>

<p>As far as I can tell, the more athletics oriented the school, the more clout the coaches have in only using a slot on an applicant who has already agreed to enroll if admitted.</p>

<p>In Division III, every school is competing against schools farther up the athletics food chain. For example, the top of the DIV III heap (like Williams) is competing against Ivy League DIV I programs...or even against real DIV I programs. Further down the line, a school like Swarthmore is competing against the more sports-focused DIV III schools. Both Williams and Swarthmore are competing against schools with much lower academic standards that will "go lower" to enroll an athlete. For example, Gettysburg has soccer players available to recruit that Swarthmore couldn't touch. Of course, on the flip side, Swarthmore is not using its low-band slots for football or ice hockey players, so it's perhaps more likely that a soccer team or a tennis team would actually get a low-band slot. </p>

<p>Based on a system codified in the Ivy League conference, most of these schools define "how low they will go" in terms of standard deviation units from their median or average academic qualifications.</p>

<p>BTW, my impression (guess?) is that soccer is a sport where schools get applicants with high academic qualifications. I doubt that soccer coaches get to use very many low-band slots.</p>

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<p>
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Specific to NESCAC schools, would you have a take on how those members not requiring SAT scores allocate their athletic slots? Are they at more of an advantage as they have a bit more wiggle room?

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<p>Probably. But, schools with lower academic standards already have more wiggle room.</p>

<p>BTW, I have no data, but I suspect that SAT scores are not really the issue in elite DIV III recruiting. Athletics recruiting at these schools skews heavily white and significantly private and suburban high schools. Thus, this pool is already going to skew higher on the SAT continuum. I suspect the real driving issue on "low-band" qualifications is underachieving high school GPAs and transcripts. It's probably a bit disingenuous when schools trot out their SAT distributions to prove that they aren't really lowering the bar for recruited athletes.</p>

<p>The academic ratings that the Ivy schools and the top DIV III schools use include sliding scales of both SATs and high school transcripts. For a non-tipped applicant, a high SAT and mediocre transcript is the kiss of death at these schools. SAT scores are used primarily as some crude measure of "potential" when evaluating the high school transcript. Without consideration of tips, a 2100 SAT applicant who knocked 'em dead academically in high school is a stronger applicant than a 2400 SAT kid who barely squeaked into the top 10% class rank.</p>

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<p>I second Macalester and Wash. U.</p>

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<p>My best guess on the typical soccer recruiting class...
1 low-band tip used for a 4-year "impact" player
4 others with academic credentials close to the average for the enrolled class with SAT scores used as a preliminary screening tool.<br>
At least 4 of the 5 accepted early decision (where applicable)</p>

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<p>Rochester, Case, NYU, all no more than seven-eight hours drive from DC.</p>

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<p>To those posters recommending specific schools (Macalester, WashU, Rochester, Case, NYU) -- are you familiar with soccer at those schools? Any specific details you'd care to share? </p>

<p>dstark alluded to some coaches who "did not deliver," and while I understand his and others' reluctance to "name names," without the names, it's hard to know which coach's word is worth something. I'm sure with some of the situations, there were details that are probably too specific to that player to make the experience relevant to others here, or in some cases, perhaps full information isn't available.</p>

<p>There's a lot of very valuable information here. The big challenge is going to be turning the generalities into a specific list.</p>

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<p>nceph, I did name names. The coach at Whitworth also came through. My guess is you are not too interested in that school. :)</p>

<p>A kid that lived in my area, and went to a rival high school, had a great experience at Wash U, both school wise and soccer wise. I would look at that school. Actually, I know two players that played for Wash U and both loved it. </p>

<p>I was in contact with a soccer player at Emory a couple of years ago. I believe he is going to med school now. He loved Emory and the soccer at Emory. The Emory web site for soccer used to let you contact players. Maybe, it still does?</p>

<p>If a team is really poor and the academics are strong, there is a good chance the coach can't deliver.</p>

<p>Oh yes. Middlebury also delivered. The kid is a great player. But the family is so loaded and I mean loaded, it's hard to tell why he got into the school.</p>

<p>I mentioned Oberlin before. From everything I know, the coach is a stand-up guy.</p>

<p>Dartmouth's coach told a friend of my daughter's that he would make the team if he got into the school, but he wouldn't help him get into the school. There is a lot of that going around too.</p>

<p>Many division 1 schools, including Ivys, lock up players in the fall of senior year.</p>

<p>The Ohio Wesleyan coach is a fantastic coach. However, he recruits more than he needs and cuts. I'm sure others do too.</p>

<p>A former teammate of my son's is going to play for Wesleyan. His father went to Wesleyan. His sister goes to Wesleyan. They love the school. His father works in the education field so I would look at that school.</p>

<p>There are some teams that are pretty bad. They are not a big step up from high school.</p>

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<p>I guess I should add that every single player from my son's former club team that wants to is going to play in college. </p>

<p>The same for my neighbor who starred in college and was an assistant coach for a year. Every player.</p>

<p>So if you want to play in college, play club soccer senior year with a team that gets into tournaments the college coaches visit.</p>

<p>Most played or will play division 3 but there were a couple of division 1 players. Most players did not want to play division 1 or they were just not good enough for division 1. There is a difference in the game.</p>

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<p>
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Dartmouth's coach told a friend of my daughter's that he would make the team if he got into the school, but he wouldn't help him get into the school. There is a lot of that going around too.

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<p>That's actually the kind of honesty and precision that you would like to see. That kid was probably in category 3 above. At least the kid knows exactly where he stands.</p>

<p>The problem is that kids don't understand the different categories of recruiting/admissions and, therefore, can easily misinterpret enthusiasm from a coach. "We want you on the team" can be easily misinterpreted as "I'll lift a finger to help you get admitted." After all, a coach is going to be enthusiastic even to a kid getting no tip because he wants the kid to enroll if he's admitted -- it's a freebie.</p>

<p>Understanding the various levels of recruiting support can allow kids to ask much more specific questions as does going into the process knowing how the application will stack up academically.</p>

<p>I have to think that the vast majority of high school soccer players would be well served to put together a list of colleges, without regard to soccer, where they would both fit and have a solid chance of acceptance. Then, go back and look the soccer programs. View soccer as a plus on the application, but not something that is going magically turn a reach into a safety. I'm guessing that serious soccer recruit tips probably have coaches calling them.</p>

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<p>"Dartmouth's coach told a friend of my daughter's that he would make the team if he got into the school, but he wouldn't help him get into the school. There is a lot of that going around too."</p>

<p>Her SAT scores were probably too high, and she took it too many times to raise her score, rather than lower it. (that isn't meant in jest; had she been allowed to use her lowest scores rather than the highest, assuming her athletic prowess was desirable, her chances would have increased.)</p>

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<p>I'm sorry, dstark. I know you named some good ones. I just meant you hadn't named any ones of negative experience. (or if you had, I missed it, and I apologize)</p>

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If a team is really poor and the academics are strong, there is a good chance the coach can't deliver.

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That sounds like something good to look for and gives us another angle to explore. </p>

<p>
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Dartmouth's coach told a friend of my daughter's that he would make the team if he got into the school, but he wouldn't help him get into the school. There is a lot of that going around too.

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Yes, I figured there'd be a good bit of that, and I expect my S will hear that some places. He won't be considered an impact player anywhere other than those teams that
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are not a big step up from high school.

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My S has watched some college teams play, and he's commented on that. His club team has also scrimmaged some college teams, and that has given him somewhat of an idea of how the teams compare.</p>

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<p>Well, he is a he. His scores were high. I don't think he took it too many times. His grades were high. He got into the school. He chose to go somewhere else and he chose not to play. </p>

<p>I don't know why he wasn't recruited. I could guess, but it would just be a guess. I don't think he was going to be a star.</p>

<p>I liked the Dartmouth coach's honesty too.</p>

<p>As Interesteddad said, some parents and kids hear what they want to hear. Many times, the coaches just don't know who is going to get in.</p>

<p>Some coaches do string the players along. They want many good players to apply. More than they need.</p>

<p>I don't want to name the negative coaches because they are not here to defend themselves. You never really know the reason why something didn't happen.</p>

<p>Nceph, looks like you are doing your homework.</p>

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<p>
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I have to think that the vast majority of high school soccer players would be well served to put together a list of colleges, without regard to soccer, where they would both fit and have a solid chance of acceptance. Then, go back and look the soccer programs.

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That's our plan. The list of schools that appeal academically is too long, so my S is trying to use soccer to help narrow down the list. Some players on his club team are being recruited by some D1 schools, but my S has no interest in those schools. We're definitely starting with the school and using the approach that it had better be a school that appeals should he suffer a career ending injury (or merely a change of heart about soccer).</p>

<p>As I said, I understand why you're not naming the negative ones. I think maybe following the approach of looking at how good the teams are may indirectly yield that information.</p>

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<p>I'm not sure that Dsark meant "not deliver" in terms of being honest with the recruits. I think he meant that those coaches couldn't deliver admissions slots, period. If the athletic department can deliver sufficient slots (shifting the balance away from the admissions office), then the team will probably have a better W-L record.</p>

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<p>"I think he meant that those coaches couldn't deliver admissions slots, period."</p>

<p>That's what I meant.</p>

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<p>I imagine there are both categories. I'd be interested in knowing 1) who can't deliver because admissions doesn't care for the coach's input, but will be very straightforward with the prospective student so that the student can decide if he wants to apply with no "help"; or 2) who can't deliver but won't tell the prospective student that, because he wants to string him along and get him to apply.</p>