<p>Have to disagree on one point, novaparent - by definition, a “■■■■■” is someone who posts an inflammatory posting merely to create a reaction – it has zero to do with their post count. In fact, a post count of “1” is very often the give-way, telling you they created the account specifically for the purpose of throwing that single ***-bomb into the middle of the room, then disappearing forever - well, not disappearing, necessarily, but never posting under that id again. Like any arsonist, ■■■■■■ will hang around to enjoy the carnage they’ve created. It’s not like an SSN - you can create hundreds of identities. Having the site admin track the IP address of the poster might illuminate, or might not. Only the poster knows what’s in his/her heart. </p>
<p>The posting in question did contain some pretty dubious assertions, outright falsehoods, and in the end, some really questionable logic - my first reaction was “■■■■■”, too. But I decided that it didn’t cost me anything to take the posting at its face - the poster could well have been sincere in their intent, despite being factually wrong on many points, and making some rather serious allegations with almost nothing to support them. </p>
<p>Personally, I think soccerguy should have extended that same ‘benefit-of-doubt’ to the poster - if he’s right, and the posting is simply a nasty bit of vandalism, exploiting the tragic loss of two young people for their own personal amusement, then the OP would deserve all that s/he said and more, much more. </p>
<p>But if he’s wrong, and the poster was sincere in her beliefs and feelings, then despite the inaccuracies, some compassion was definitely the order of the day, or at least a more reasoned response.</p>
<p>It’s clear from the post that the OP was very familiar with William and Mary and recent suicides and was upset. That’s enough for me to disqualify him or her as a ■■■■■. I think it’s dangerous not to give a post like this the benefit of the doubt.</p>
<p>As for the post containing “outright falsehoods,” I disagree. The poster isn’t saying the sky is green when we all know it’s blue; the poster is suggesting that William and Mary’s approach to student mental health issues is motivated, at least in part, by self-interest. That’s an opinion, not a fact, and it’s an opinion shared by many students and parents at many colleges and universities. These people are entitled to their opinions whether you agree with them or not.</p>
<p>Soccerguy has a mean streak and a history of taking cheap shots at posts that he disagrees with. As such, he has no credibility in my book.</p>
<p>I don’t know - I’ve bolded the sections of wmgurl’s lone post below that I think are either outright falsehoods or are flirting with the idea.</p>
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I don’t see “opinion” in accusing the administration of trying to brush off or cover up suicide at the College. These extremely serious charges go beyond personal interpretation of the administration’s actions, which have proven to differ markedly from the poster’s accusations.</p>
<p>I don’t see a ■■■■■ post here, though. I think wmgurl is reeling from the shock of unanticipated deaths among her friends, and is looking for a way to vent her anger and fear. But it’s irresponsible to do it by accusing the administration of bearing some responsibility for these tragedies. (One might almost say her response was juvenile, knee-jerk, and unfair - understandable, and within the TOS, but still extreme and therefore unreliable.)</p>
<p>I’d also like to stand up for soccerguy, whose posts I have found helpful and genuine. All of us have pushed back online when we’re incensed. Looking at his response to wmgurl, it seems to me to be within the TOS.</p>
<p>Yea, right, frazzled, it’s within the TOS for soccerguy to say “maybe they committed suicide b/c they couldn’t take your rash online ranting without supported facts.”</p>
<p>Please. </p>
<p>For soccerguy to react like that is a disservice to William and Mary.</p>
<p>Is the purpose of the William and Mary board only to allow cheerleaders for the school to express one-sided opinions and to attack anyone who in any way disagrees? The intelligent way to disagree with another poster is by logic, not by petty insults.</p>
<p>Nova, the OP was questioning, with my opinion, worthwhile thoughts concerning the recent suicides at WM and his daughter’s interest. Soccerguy was flaming wmgurl, not the OP. Did he handle it properly? Perhaps not but I feel what he felt with the post…just someone trying to slam WM and their administration. (Just like the other incident…“my daughter didn’t get in so it has to all be about numbers, and no personality to the admits.” Personally I found it difficult to believe someone was extremely close to three persons that committed suicide in a small amount of time. Anytime tragedy hits, folks come from the woodworks, claiming “we were so close.” Or “My best friend.” Not certain why it is human nature. Whenever someone drops tirades and disappears, their opinion isn’t important enough to defend for themselves. That said, in the time I’ve been on CC and since my daughter committed in April, '07, soccerguy has always been around to offer sage advice. More of a bonus to WM; not a hinderance. Again, my opinion.</p>
<p>Momray, of course you’re right, I didn’t mean the OP. Still, I find it incredible, and kind of sad, really, that no “fan” of William and Mary (at least none on this thread) takes any issue with soccerguy’s initial response to wmgurl. Sure, soccerguy offers “sage” advice to other William and Mary fans – but he’s obnoxious and mean-spirited to anyone who posts anything negative about the school. This detracts from his credibility among truly objective posters. </p>
<p>As for “the other issue,” if you’re talking about my posts a few months ago questioning whether William and Mary treats men differently than women in admissions, you need to go back and read the thread. You’re flat wrong in assuming that I have a daughter who wanted to go to William and Mary and didn’t get in; as I explained back then, only one of my kids had William and Mary high on her list – she got in and turned it down. Remember, too, that that thread eventually elicited a response from William and Mary’s admissions office that it DOES in fact evaluate men and women applicants under different standards. So it’s not like I was coming out of left field. But let’s not get into all of that again.</p>
<p>Just so you know, novaparent, the reference to a parent who came on here trashing the schools adcoms after her daughter was rejected was recent, (like within the last month), and so the reference <em>probably</em> wasn’t about “you” or “your thread.” Though I think you’re being a little disingenuous claiming that the Admissions office came here and confessed to what you were arguing on on “your” thread, only that they use holistic evaluations in that thread, but again, “let’s not get into all of that again.” </p>
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<p>Far be it from me to say what the purpose of this board is, but making some very serious charges which could border on criminal negligence and covering-up on the part of the school, using what seem to be some incorrect assumptions and interpretations as “evidence” is probably not one of them. </p>
<p>If the poster were truly sincere, and truly feel this is a problem specific to this school, then they need to write letters to the editors of every media outlet, the President of the school, members of the Board of Visitors, their state representatives in the General Assembly, and so on, to get them to investigate. And if they’re still reading, if they truly believe their version is correct, I implore them to do just that.</p>
<p>Personally, I didn’t directly confront soccerguy’s comments, though I found them shocking. When you complained, did you find he attacked you? No, he didn’t. </p>
<p>I don’t think you’ll find he attacks people who post negative opinions, but he attacks people who post what he feels are lying or making deliberate misstatements. Clearly that’s what he thinks has happened here - but I’m not convinced either way. </p>
<p>He’s usually very helpful and reasonable to those who ask questions, and is a valuable contributor here. <em>I</em> wouldn’t attack in such a way, but it’s not up to me to validate or repudiate his opinions - I’m not his censor, nor am I the board patrolman. I only post here occasionally in the very modest hope that my knowledge of the school can help someone, and it’s certainly not to engage in protracted flame wars or intellectual chest-beating.</p>
<p>So, no, I didn’t confront those comments, directly. You think I should have, fine, I see that, I won’t disagree - after all, that’s you’re opinion, and you may well be right.</p>
<p>here are my questions then… what is the poster hoping to accomplish? They have never posted on this website before. Why did they feel the need to do so now? They might not even be a girl (just like I might not be a guy). They have also not made a followup post, even though the parent of a new W&M student asked them questions very politely.</p>
<p>I think it is dangerous to give a post like that the benefit of the doubt. It has serious accusations that were not backed up at all. I do not blame you for coming down on the other side of the argument, however, I think if you read the post again though, you will agree that it was written to incite a response, which I was more than happy to provide.</p>
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<p>I don’t take cheap shots. I have been on this message board since 2004, as you can see. I have a lot of posts… probably too many. I try to share my thoughts and opinions to help whoever is looking for information about W&M.</p>
<p>I had a great time at W&M, but I will happily concede that it is not perfect (I will even say I was unsatisfied after my first year). If you want to start a thread about “things at W&M that suck” I will be happy to contribute to that also. In fact, I believe I recently posted in a thread that asked for the bad things about W&M.</p>
<p>I have also defended the entire higher education system of VA on this board, but unfortunately that post is gone now, as the posts are deleted every year, which is annoying since the W&M board has such low volume and the same topics inevitably come up each year.</p>
<p>I am generally a responsible member of internet forums, which I suppose if you go through the trouble of googling my username, you will find include CC, Redskins, Capitals, W&M sports, and a video game or two. I do admit to posting a provoking thread in the politics forum a few months ago with a loaded question.</p>
<p>I certainly have no issues with UVA (I know that was just a hypothetical), except that they are just slightly worse than W&M at undergraduate academics and football =P</p>
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<p>The intelligent way to start an argument (or a discussion, if you prefer) is with laying out the facts, not blindly making accusations with nothing to back them up. As I said, I am happy to share my negative opinions as well (in the big picture of college, they are pretty petty).</p>
<p>Do you think the poster in question would go up to the person in charge of mental health services and tell them what she wrote in this post, word for word, shouting where it indicates? I do not think so. And, if the poster would be unwilling to say it in person, why are they willing to write it online? Probably because they have anonymity and do not have to worry about repercussions. The poster lost 3 friends and is upset, and feels that someone should “answer” for this… that someone is “to blame” (though obviously not herself). If she really felt something was wrong with the way things were handled at W&M and she wanted to make a difference, she would address it with the appropriate persons in Williamsburg, not anonymously on an internet forum where no one can check her story.</p>
<p>As for my comment that I admitted was tasteless, well, I acknowledged that from the beginning. I’m sure it is not against the TOS to pose a question, and I do not regret throwing wood on the fire.</p>
<p>I will add that apparently you can access the old threads by changing your display options (thanks to frazzled) so they are not actually deleted.</p>
<p>In fact, with this new discovery, you can read my post in the “what don’t you like about W&M” thread.</p>
<p>I don’t think your statement about what W&M Admissions posted is accurate (and I see I am not the only one), but am happily willing to leave that out of the thread.</p>
<p>I do not take issue with any poster here… only the text that is posted.</p>
<p>I went to W&M in the late 70’s. I can remember people saying to me, “Don’t go there, it is a suicide school.” So this unfortunate rumor is not new. I loved everything about W&M.</p>
<p>I think we all need to remind ourselves that suicide among youth and young adults is a national problem. W&M provides services and resources through the Counseling Center, the Dean of Students Offices, Resident Assistants, Orientation Aids, and numerous other outlets. It’s not a foolproof system; one doesn’t exist and it is tragic when a W&M student decides to end his/her life and that tragedy is felt by the campus. What makes W&M a bit different than many other colleges is that a campus-wide email is sent so all students are aware of the tragedy and the resources available to the survivors. Thus knowledge of such events is simply more prevalent on W&M’s campus and thus the rumor mill continues to swirl.</p>
<p>W&M’s close and tight-knit community makes the impact of such tragedies much more widely felt on our campus than many others which is indicative of a true community spirit which exists on campus. It also means that students, faculty, and staff are more informed and therefore more information is available about such tragedies at W&M than they might be elsewhere and any of that knowledge taken out of context is often how rumors start.</p>
<p>Well, it seems that nothing is done or nothings is effective. There are 2 suicides in 2010 (or until now-August), one in February, and one in April. It seems that there are 2 to 4 suicides almost each year since 2004. One may think that there is something else going on. It is really strange how the case of Ian, a student found in Virginia beach, was quickly pronounced a suicide. Why one would go to Virginia beach to commit suicide. Second, the information regarding the student who was found dead in her room in February, Dominique, is very contradicting. Why the teacher was concerned and asked the student to be checked, it was either a practice or something was fishy. In addition, I do not think that a suicide is a mare statistics; it is a serious problem. A comparison should not be done with the country or national level but the local college occurences. The question is why each year a student dies at William and Mary and what the local authorities are doing. It is a fact that counseling is not working at W&M. The college should implement mandatory psych sessions for every student, out of charge. Agressive measures are necessary and why were not taken since 2004 when 4 “suicides” were established. Resources and research should focus on this local tragical phenomenon unless the college is doing it on purpose or is interested to use it as a propaganda to attract students.</p>
Dominique Chandler’s death this spring was the first suicide since 2005, and the college has had only a dozen suicides in the last 40 years.</p>
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Why not?</p>
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Fishy that a student might have relationships with other people? People in need of support will sometimes give warning signs, others won’t.</p>
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The suicide rate at W&M is well below the national average. But by all means, ignore statistics. Flip a coin ten times in a row and get all heads. Then the 11th time, when it comes up tails, don’t compare to anything else. Ask yourself why it came up tails that time, and what must be wrong with the coin. Suicides are tragic, but they will never be entirely preventable.</p>
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Just like it is a fact that there have been 2-4 suicides every year since 2004.</p>
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It would take a counselor over 13 years to meet with ~7900 students one time for a one hour session each.</p>
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What phenomenon? A suicide rate half the national average?</p>
<p>RE: "In fact, a post count of “1” is very often the give-way, telling you they created the account specifically for the purpose of throwing that single ***-bomb into the middle of the room, then disappearing forever - well, not disappearing, necessarily, but never posting under that id again. Like any arsonist, ■■■■■■ will hang around to enjoy the carnage they’ve created. It’s not like an SSN - you can create hundreds of identities. Having the site admin track the IP address of the poster might illuminate, or might not. Only the poster knows what’s in his/her heart.</p>
<p>The posting in question did contain some pretty dubious assertions, outright falsehoods, and in the end, some really questionable logic - my first reaction was “■■■■■”, too. But I decided that it didn’t cost me anything to take the posting at its face - the poster could well have been sincere in their intent, despite being factually wrong on many points, and making some rather serious allegations with almost nothing to support them. "</p>
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<p>Soccer/Squiddy: your use of ***** and pointing out the bit about the IP address makes me think you are the same person. I scored a 100% in the logic section of Weschler IQ. If you went to W&M I am sure you could easily figure out how to have a different IP address. There are free programs to do this online or you could go to a coffee shop. W&M students are extremely competitive at heart and hate to lose . . . I daresay this could explain the investment put into all of these responses. Sad.</p>
<p>Having read your other post, which is also related to the issue of suicide at W & M, I must say I do wonder about your motives, Yourmotives. I imagine we’ve heard from you before, the IP address thing being so easy to figure out?</p>
<p>It should be possible to have a productive discussion about suicide among college students - it’s an important topic. I’ll reiterate that I believe W & M’s administration has a responsible, reasonable policy in place, appropriate for an educational institution, which is not a mental health facility. Depending upon the source you use, suicide is either the second or third leading cause of death in people aged 15 to 24 - whether they are in college or not.</p>
<p>Some have criticized the role that Campus Police play in suicide prevention (theirs is the designated number to call if one believes the risk of suicide is imminent). I feel that this is appropriate given the financial realities of life at the college - they can’t have a suicide prevention specialist at work in the Health Center 24/7. I would be surprised if even the costliest colleges do.</p>
<p>Since this thread was originated, there has been another suicide at the College, which deeply upset the entire campus. It is not a problem the administration is trying to shove under the rug. Some of the responses on this thread suggest to me an attempt to affix blame in order to explain an inexplicable tragedy.</p>
<p>Yourmotives - a massive, embarrassing fail on your part.</p>
<p>Since you claim to be “logical” - since I and soccerguy took opposing viewpoints on the validity of the “■■■■■” poster, are you suggesting “I/we” are schizophrenic? </p>
<p>That IQ test you took? You should get your money back.</p>
<p>When it comes to IP addresses, most don’t bother to forge their IP or MAC addresses. For example, did you when you posted that? Now, maybe you meant an anonymous proxy - that would be far easier to do, but again, most people don’t bother.</p>
<p>When it comes to “motives”, it’s pretty clear whose are suspect, here.</p>