Surprises in Undergrad Schools Producing Doctorates: Punching Above Their Weight

I think to support the premise (PhD production is a proxy for intellectualism on the undergrad campus) you need to pull out the Education and Physical Therapy folks. (There may be more- these two come to mind). A doctorate is a requirement in many places to advance from school principal to superintendent; I have met many people who have made that transition, and it would be a stretch to say that intellectualism and the desire to do a deep dive into doctoral level research was their motivation. Principal salaries tap out in most public school systems; Superintendent salaries can continue to increase if there is a willing school board. So I’m raising a flag on the Ed doctorates.

PT is by virtue of current certification requirements- a doctoral level profession. Not every practitioner has one, but I think the change was made in the 1990’s so eventually, if you want to work as a PT, you will get a doctorate. And there are plenty of kids majoring in related fields as undergrads who are about as pre-professional as they get.

So pull that population out of the broader pool and we can talk.

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I believe all the data at the links in the OP include research doctorates only (PhDs)…so not DPTs (physical therapy) nor Ed.Ds.

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More possible reasons:

  • Students choosing LACs may be more likely to want to go on to PhD study to begin with.
  • LACs have fewer students in preprofessional majors where students are more likely to want to go to work immediately after graduation.
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Webb Institute has one major, which is naval architecture and marine engineering. It is rarely mentioned here, probably because the major is rarely mentioned here.

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The list does include phd in education recipients.

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Yes, that is considered a research PhD. Education is one of the worlds where professionally it can make sense to get a PhD or Ed.D.

Generally though I am with you and skeptical regarding the value of a PhD. Obviously tough to get into academia, and in other jobs like strategy consulting (which is really the only area I know about :wink:) PhDs generally don’t get any type of pay bump for having that degree. So…that’s just a huge opportunity cost for all those years of not making $, not getting work experience, not getting promotions…blah blah blah. I get that some bench research jobs really value PhDs, to each their own!

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Agree with the second one. First one seems counter intuitive? Someone excited about research at high school level should gravitate towards research schools?

PhDs are definitely not a way of making more money on average. In most cases spending those 5-8 years somewhere else will earn you more. However, the type of work you do as a Bachelors vs PhD does change and that difference carries on in the whole career.

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Only in some jobs though. Often not in strategy consulting where those with bachelors, MBAs, and PhDs are all doing the same jobs, on the same path. That PhD (and MBA) may have started as a senior consultant (for example) whereas the bachelors’ person started as a consultant, but in 5-8 years that person with the bachelors has received 3 or 4 promotions assuming they are performing. (I am sure there are exceptions though so people don’t @ me with anecdotes!)

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As someone currently in hs who wants to pursue research, I think it is completely possible for a student to go to lac with a research interest because lacs will generally give more student teacher interactions, and there are no grad students, so professors may be more likely to get undergrads to do interesting work. This is just based off my opinion and those who I know, so it may be wrong.

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Yes true. I was thinking of more science/engineering oriented jobs.

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Yes but the quality of research you will be around will be definitely lower so there are pros and cons.

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I think it would be interesting to see if the higher % of researchers phenomenon also continues if we look at the top scientists in the field. Nobel Prize, Fields medal or even bit lower level like national science academy folks etc.

I agree that would be a really interesting stat that would probably show a relatively strong representation of how graduates of that school do in very high level research. The only issue with this is that the people winning awards or in associations tend to be higher up in age, so while the college representation would be accurate, it may not reflect the current reality.

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Yes one normally relies only on correlation. Causation is almost impossible to ascertain since there are a lot of unknown factors.

I think conclusions based on a large 10 years phd data can be reasonably reliable although they can always be “explained” by factors others than contribution of the college education.

As you start slicing and dicing data more the numbers become too small and statistical conclusions are invalid.

I also believe top people in any field are capable of thriving in most places. If the % of top achievers in research remains same as overall student ratio from large to LACs then I think it would be a big deal. That would mean your chances of doing supremely well don’t get dinged because you study at undergraduate only institutions.

At an average level of achievement in research data is already amply clear. LACs produce more per capita PhDs by a very large margin @2.5X I believe.

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As expected someone has done research on this.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2016.20757

I wouldn’t say the “quality” of research is lower at LACs. It’s just that the projects are usually smaller, fewer, and more constrained by available resources. The available resources (including time) depend on the school.

Imagine profs at an R1: they’ve all done a PhD and usually at least one postdoc. They barely teach, they got startup funds, access to institutional equipment, and should have grant funding. They can get trainees and staff to run their experiments. So research productivity is high. Undergrads mostly do scut work, but a few have projects.

Profs at an R2: all of that same stuff, but fewer research resources, and some more teaching. Research productivity medium high.

Profs at a fancier LAC: decent startup funds and some institutional equipment. They occasionally have external grant funding. All help is from undergrads, many of whom have full projects. They probably teach 2-3 classes per semester. Research productivity medium.

Profs at a not-fancy LAC: modest startup fund, institution may have little equipment. They occasionally have external grant funding, and many profs at this level have still done a postdoc. They likely teach 3+ classes per semester. Research productivity medium or low.

LACs hire profs that have ideas for projects that are possible on a tight budget, using only undergrads for help. You shouldn’t get tenure if you’re a bad teacher at a LAC, and you need at least some research product. At an R1, if your research/funding is sufficiently plentiful (not necessarily high-quality), you’ll get tenure even if you’re a bad teacher.

So the research product from LAC profs is still good quality, there is just less of it. The techniques aren’t as flashy, trendy, or expensive, but are solid. They get really creative. They have impressed me at conferences with the ingenuity of their projects. Many LAC profs do research at other sites, including with collaborators, where they can access resources they don’t have at their own institutions. They like to involve students in this when possible.

I have not observed a strong correlation of research quality (it takes an experienced scientist to assess this) with institutional size or prestige. In my field, there are a lot of eye rolls when certain folks (not all!) from UCLA, Yale, etc, get up to talk about their work. Because it’s flashy but not high-quality, and there’s a lot of posturing (again, certain people, not all!). I’ve seen poor-quality research (sloppy, wasteful, wrong, dishonest, etc) come out of researchers across the spectrum of institutions. Good ideas are a dime a dozen, it’s the implementation that’s important.

All this is to say: a student can be well-trained in high-QUALITY scientific research (careful, efficient, accurate, honest) at any school. They just need mentors who know how to do it and teach it. And those can be found at any institution. That’s why a LAC can prepare an undergrad well for a PhD.

Edited to add: By saying R1 profs “barely” teach, I mean quantity of teaching, not quality of teaching. A “trainee” in a research lab is a student or a postdoc.

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Boy, not the experience of my kids (R1 all), or my spouse (R1). Barely teach? My kid at MIT had a Nobel winner teaching a freshman required course. What is barely teach?

And what is a trainee? None of them saw a non-academic doing ANYTHING research related unless it was administrative. A big project at an R1 will have the budget to hire a university employee (not an academic) for compliance, safety, all the reporting. A smaller project might have grad students sharing responsibility for some of that documentation. But run an experiment?

You are using a LOT of hyperbole to make your point. Which I agree with btw- a student can be well trained at an LAC. But you don’t need to engage in all your other myths/half truths to make your point. It stands on its own. And the CC trope that faculty at R1 universities “barely teach” really has to be retired. Because it’s not true, AND because the people who believe it are taking it on faith from the “experienced” CC folks who tell them that physics at High Point or University of New Haven is “just as good” as physics at MIT so they should take the merit offer and not look back.

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I agree with you on this. Our experience at Princeton regarding faculty attention to students is exceptional. I don’t think my kid had any grad student teaching classes – maybe for some of the precepts. He in fact had a Turing medal winning CS prof for a precept his freshman fall that was completely nuts. He had two more 20-person sized classes with him after, and one-on-one summer research.

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R1 profs often teach 1 course per year. There are many excellent teachers at R1s!

A trainee in STEM research is a student or postdoc. PhD students and postocs run the vast majority of experiments in R1 labs. Some have staff scientists who also run experiments, but that’s not all labs. Yes there are staff hired by departments/institutions to oversee compliance and stuff. Those aren’t hired by individual PIs.

I guess I don’t understand which points are hyperbolic. This is based off of my observations having worked and/or studied at R1s, an R2, and a LAC.

But they do barely teach, in terms of amount of teaching. Unless they’re in a teaching-specific position, R1 faculty don’t have the time or the expectation to teach very much. Many of them are outstanding teachers! They just do 1 or 2 classes every year, or every 2 years. Or they just teach graduate classes.

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone here say something like that. I certainly don’t think that. I think high-QUALITY teaching and research can be found lots of places, and institutional prestige is not a strict proxy for quality of instruction or research. There are pros and cons for every place, and it’s just nice to have information to weigh all that stuff.

ETA: I did my undergrad (and LOVED it) at an R1, my postdoc at an R1, I work at an R1, and my kid will mostly likely attend college at an R1 next year. I certainly have nothing against R1s. They are great. I also love other types of schools. They are not better or worse, just different.

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