<p>176.</p>
<p>Very good.</p>
<p>BBD, I think you and I would be friends in real life! Your post is spot on.</p>
<p>Someone who works for me spends more money on drycleaning in one year than I think I spend on clothes, maintenance, grooming, etc. And yet she never fails to put in a dig about all those “rich folks” who just write a check to send their kid to high priced colleges, while she and her H are forced to send their kid to the local public U and he lives at home. Of course, the kid owns a car, they have a vacation house (what she refers to as “our retirement plan”) etc.</p>
<p>None of my business how she spends her money. But it is a choice to allocate income to education, just as it’s a choice to allocate income to lots of other consumer goods. And if I had her income (she works for me so I know at least some of her financial picture) I would have been saving money for college at a rapid clip.</p>
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Who are you to refuse to buy her a Mercedes for her birthday if she wants one?
Who are you to forbid her from smoking?
Who are you to stop her from riding a motorcycle without a helmet?
At what point is it a parent’s responsibility to protect their children from ignorance?</p>
<p>I would guess that the difference in all of these cases is one of justification. Your daughter (hypothetical or real) probably cannot justify becoming hooked on tobacco or buying a fancy car. But you clearly think she can justify going to an expensive college. And I agree. But that doesn’t change the fact that she needs to make that case, and I’d be willing to bet that you expect to hear a bit more than:
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<p>When I applied to colleges, there was not even a thought about considering going to a school that did not offer money. In fact the financial aid package offers were what were eagerly anticipated by my crowd, not the college so much. It was without a thought that I discarded those schools that were not up there in awards. I knew that I had to have a scholarship/aid to go to any school other than the one my dad had affiliation.</p>
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<p>She doesn’t need to make any case to me. Like most parents, I want her to go to college. She picks the school because she is the one who has to live with the decision. She needs to pick one that we can afford, of course. If she wants a Mercedes for her birthday she can earn the money and buy it for herself.</p>
<p>In the exchange between Rebecca and Suze that you highlighted I wouldn’t expect Rebecca to be able to articulate why she would prefer the school that she prefers, (is it Drexel?). A person can’t always explain why they want to go to a particular college, often they’re following their instincts, how they felt when they were on the campus. What was the point of this exchange anyway. For Suze to convince Rebecca that she really doesn’t want to do to Drexel? It’s a personal preference, you can’t really argue with that.</p>
<p>The overriding consideration isn’t whether or not Rebecca wants to go to Drexel, it is that her parents are not able or are not willing to pay for it. I don’t know which it is, it doesn’t matter. I don’t think a kid can go to an expensive private college on their own, their parents have to be on board with it.</p>
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Okay, that’s fair. $40k is a lot less debt than the scenario here, but you never supported larger amounts and this argument seems quite sensible.
If the parents are paying anything, I certainly think they have a right to hear why they should pay that amount. If there is no concrete reason to prefer a school, I certainly don’t think it’s responsible for a parent to blithely support going into major debt or take on considerable financial strain themselves.</p>
<p>It is a tough situation when you have a child who really wants to go to a school that is a stretch, maybe dangerously so for the family to pay. Our son found a school that he really liked. Very small school. Loved the atmosphere, classes, professors, size, location, and the block plan which few schools have. It really was the only school that excited him. He did love it. The problem was that it was also very expensive.</p>
<p>We had set up a budget for his college costs, and yep, it was over the amounts. I can tell you that it did hurt me when I saw that. I was very thankful that he was able to negotiate an increase in the merit award and then got an outside scholarship that made the school just on the cusp of our dollar limits. Even then, it’s been a struggle for us to pay the costs. I’m scraping up the last payment and dreading the next one as I write this. Truly, we would not be so tight on money if he had chosen any of his less expensive choices.
It has also affected his choices as well. He is struggling to take a wonderful paid internship this summer because it pretty much means that he isn’t going to make money towards college expenses. He can bank most of his summer money if he lives at home, but if he stays at school, he will have hefty living expenses. Also he can make more money here. He is looking into getting a part time second job on top of his internship so that he can maybe put book money away. </p>
<p>But the school has been a great match for him. It has truly rejuvenated his interest in academic. He has won a departmental award and a research grant. His grades are far better than they were in high school and he is working closely with profs on some impressive projects. He is taking advanced courses that are truly challenging. He loves it there. So it has been worth it for us. We will be hit very hard, however, when his brother goes to college, because we’ll have a year of double college costs. And I dread what the next one will want to do and what it will cost.</p>
<p>In our case, it makes things a bit blurrier because we can sort of afford it. It means making college choice a priority which we so want to do. We do have the choice, but that means exercising judgment. In many ways it’s mentally easier when there is no question that it cannot be done since that ends the discussion right there. It’s when it is possible to do but at a cost that affects other things that the discussion continues.</p>
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<p>That’s a very good point to which I can easily relate. When D was admitted to a much desired school that we could “technically,” but not comfortably pay for, the decision-making was not so clear cut. I seriously vacillated, even against my better judgement. There were a couple of moments when D sort of pulled me back from the brink. I knew her preferences and “technically” could have supported them with considerable sacrifice, discipline, and perhaps a little luck. But D would say, “No, no, no, that’s not the plan, remember?” Then we’d let it go for a day or two before coming back to the same discussion. </p>
<p>She appreciated that I had the heart to do it for her. I appreciated that she had the heart not to let me. Nonetheless, that discussion did not completely go away until circumstances finally conspired to make it a moot point altogether. So yes, although I too am from the “affordability trumps elite school” camp, I am well acquainted with the temptation to do otherwise when affordability might be tough, but not impossible, and a preferred (not to mention dutifully earned) choice hangs there in the balance.</p>
<p>My daughter is at a pricey private school, on a lot of financial aid. We’re squarely middle class, own a modest house, have two cars, two jobs, the usual. Our instate public would have been quite a bit more money. I wouldn’t be so quick to write off privates if your child is a strong applicant. Which is rather hard to know in grammar school.</p>
<p>That said, as a community college graduate myself, I’ve tried to never talk down about them to my kids. It’s not the end of the world to start at your least expensive option.</p>
<p>Husband and I decided that our kids “dream school” was going to happen even if it meant we did’nt see a restaurant for the total of 6 years our four kids were in college. We drive the very old cars and have put off expensive repairs to our home. I would do it all over again because our kids educational opportunities was our priority. Son #1 graduates in a few short weeks from MIT, and our two middle sons have had amazing opportunities and experiences at Cornell. Our daughters education at state U is costing more than what we paid for any one of her siblings. They are each at the school they needed to be and there are no regrets. They are all welcomed to live at home for a couple of years to pay off their loans which is very doable providing they live the way we have lived since they have been in college. We have just always looked at the whole college education thing as a responsibility to do our best to provide what we considered the best for them. It would have been awfully hard to turn down Cornell and MIT for less expensive options.</p>
<p>I am always concerned when kids are told to only apply to state schools without ever knowing if they could have received financial aid at a private or more expensive “dream school”. There are also too many parents that have NO problem with their kids receiving merit money but they balk at the parents whose kids are receiving financial aid.</p>
<p>I’m with cptofthehouse. Back in the dark ages, I applied to four colleges…sight unseen. One was an instate public. The other three were privates. The winner was the one that cost me the LEAST amount of money for the year…and it was one of the privates. BUT I did transfer after my freshman year to the instate public from which I graduated. That private would NOT have been as generous my second year. The instate public rose to the top of the financial heap.</p>
<p>My family could not contribute to my college education…but that was in the day when it really WAS possible to work your way through school…which I did. </p>
<p>My how times have changed.</p>
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<p>The problem is, many of us are already there even before our kids go off to college. We dont own a vacation home, a camper or a boat, nor do we jet away for lavish vacations every year. I get the feeling that college admissions officers look at middle class folks and think ‘Oh, if they really want their kid to come to our school, they can just take out a second mortgage’. Going further into debt is just not acceptable to us, nor is gutting retirement portfolios that have already taken a major hit in recent years (Im assuming Social Security will be in major trouble by the time my wife and I retire and that we will be responsible for maintaining a modestly comfortable lifestyle).</p>
<p>My son was well aware throughout the college application and selection process that we had a set limit that we could pay each year towards his education (an amount that is still quite a stretch for us), and that his ability to attend any ‘dream school’ would be dependent on getting the best FA package and scholarships. He did apply to several in the hopes of getting significant merit money. The final packages were not what we hoped for, though, and he decided that going $50,000 further into SA debt was not a wise choice and accepted a honors college invitation at one of the top state schools for his major. Having a good school that he visited and liked made the decision to turn down his dream schools easier.</p>
<p>FLAVADAD “She appreciated that I had the heart to do it for her. I appreciated that she had the heart not to let me.”</p>
<p>Love, love, love this quote. This is our family too. We could have and would have made it happen, but didn’t have to.</p>
<p>There is no problem if everyone is on board with what is needed to pay for the education. I can tell you that it is not ok by me to see pushing age 60 Dad taking on another job, and Mom taking on cleaning houses, the family squeezing into much smaller quarters, not so safe, not so good, and skimping on things that affect the health of the rest of the family. Though it may read as heart warming stories that Mama scrubbed floors, took on laundry and died young so that her kids could have an education, I call it heart burn when I read those things. I would not want a loved one to suffer for my education , and I would be appalled if any of my kids wanted that kind of sacrifice from us. They don’t, so that is not an issue. </p>
<p>In many families the battle ground is a gray area. Should that home which, yes is a luxury home, be sold and the family move elsewhere when they are all happy in that house, so that college kid can go to Private U? PROFILE says if they could, they should. Why should the college subsidize that extra luxury when there are too many kids who don’t even have that asset in their family. But do you really want your family to leave that home they like and has been their home for years? Especially when there are other siblings involved.</p>
<p>As a personal glimpse in my life, we currently have two 80+ grandmoms in shaky health who are in transition to move in with us. We have a big enough house so that this can be done without everyone being in each other’s faces. But I know full well this is a luxury. If we could sell this house and buy something much smaller, cheaper, in a less convenient area, it would lower everyone in this family’s standard of living except the college kids who would then have that money for their costs. Is this right? I don’t think so. But another family may scramble for such opportunity.</p>
<p>I love the Flavadad quote too. You have a gem of a daughter.</p>
<p>What I find so interesting about this conversation is how different families have such different takes on the same info. I have a friend who is borrowing tens of thousands of dollars to send her daughter to a pricey private college. They live paycheck to paycheck, are underwater on their mortgage and have no savings whatsoever. She constantly complains that she will “never be able to retire” etc, but she is still pursuing this $50,000+ private college when there is a reasonably similar in-state college for $20,000. I think this is nuts - but to each her own. I’m curious to see if they actually stick with pricey college or if after a year or two - they realize they can’t afford it and have their daughter transfer.</p>
<p>There are many misguided folks. I knew a family who did the same thing, Rockvillemom. It was really painful to watch. They lived in squalor and with huge risk, so that their kids could go to a private college, in their case a small religious college that cost much more than the state alternatives. They live in WV and they could have gotten pretty much a free ride at any WV public colleges through Promise, but for some reason, they were sure that a private Catholic school in Ohio was the way to go. And it had high, private costs and not so generous financial aid or scholarships. Maybe they are right, but I don’t see it. </p>
<p>Another family I know spent their entire pension savings so that their kids could go to top private schools. They are now in severe financial trouble, and right now their kids are not reaping any financial advantage from going to those schools. </p>
<p>I know a teacher who is in so much debt that it is ridiculous, to help her son through college.The thing is, the kid was adamant he had to go away to college, had to go to an OOS college, had to, had to, had to. I, for one, saw no “had to” there. </p>
<p>I can understand why any parent would want to give his/her child/ren anything they want. We want the best for our kids, and education is certainly no low item on my priority list. But there are family issues, personal issues, financial issues that everyone in the family should know how to assess for all of the members when insisting on everyone sacrificing for a course of action. This is not a potentially life saving procedure that you are contemplating, and I have known families who have to weigh the risks and values of paying for that sort of thing. By spending that kind of money, families can put themselves at risk in a lot of other areas such as health, care, flexibility, financial security in the event of a job loss. </p>
<p>One of my husband’s former colleagues committed suicide several years ago. There were a number of reason, mainly deep depression that caused the deed, but one of the big problems was money. Loss of job meant, prospect of losing house, two kids in expensive colleges, loss of all material things. They were on edge financially anyways, leaving no margin of safety and this economy has been brutal to many.</p>
<p>Lots of talk about “no debt” and “too much debt” but is “some debt” ever OK?</p>
<p>I can vividly remember being in college and feeling that the kids whose parents were paying everything didn’t take their studies nearly as seriously as the kids I knew (like myself) who had some student loans, aka “skin in the game”. Having some loans made me hungrier and more ambitious when my career began, too. I paid them off within a few years and still feel some pride about that.</p>
<p>Fast forward 25 years and now I have a daughter who just decided to attend a tippy top school, and the cost to her for making that choice – over more affordable options – is that she will graduate with not more than $20,000 in total student loan debt (including accumulated interest).</p>
<p>Part of me wishes she had chosen a debt-free option but part of me isn’t so sure that having some skin in the game won’t provide her with the same kick in the pants it provided her old man long ago.</p>
<p>Thoughts?</p>
<p>$20K total debt upon graduation is not life changing–and she may even be able to work some or earn other scholarship money along the way to reduce that number. Her payment will be small. It is the $20K and more per year debt that students acquire that will put them so far under once they graduate.</p>
<p>I don’t think $20k is unreasonable these days. I kinda look at the Stafford maximums as the outer limits unless there are some extenuating circumstances. In some cases, even a large loan burden is an option to be examined. It’s just that in this case, the young lady on the Orman show seems to have the whole wrong attitude and idea about the situation.</p>
<p>I am in contact with my friend whose daughter is contemplating taking out huge loans for college. In their case, it may be the best alternative, since home life right now is getting downright rough with divorce and much nastiness in the air. Hopefully in the next 4 years the dust clears and some of the loan burden can be shifted, but right now staying at home and commuting in a stress filled home is not an attractive option and those loans, prohibitive though they may be, just might be worth it.</p>
<p>I could not recommend that to my son two years ago. As much as I would have loved to have taken out the loans or let him borrow the money, for him or us to owe that much when there were other alternatives that were not dysfunctional available really was not a good financial decision. It’s giving in to a want. Wanting the Lexus, the vacation, the private club, the designer clothes, etc. I think he would have taken a gap year to think things over, if other alternatives did not open, and that is ok too.</p>
<p>I was trying not to get into a discussion about this. But we had saved since my son was born, and we paid for his private elite LAC education; and it did cost us a bundle. My son is happy with his education. And so are we. Even though it did not lead to much stability (or $$$ for him) in the short run. We had saved for this and we’re past it now. And we saved for our retirement and probably will not be homeless when we’re both 65. </p>
<p>I just think it is such a <em>personal</em> decision, that arguing over this is pointless. It’s like some people like jalapeno peppers, no matter that they might cause problems going down the oesophagus. Or downing an extra extra hot sauce that others find unpalatable. Everyone to his own. I don’t understand why people argue endlessly about this.</p>
<p>I do understand about student debt and probably would not have asked my son to go to NYU and incur a 200,000 dollar debt. I do understand that the country is hurting right now, people are being thrown out of their own homes, people are unable to pay their mortgages, not to mention how little they have saved for old age.</p>