<p>"One of the reasons I don’t personally put much ‘premium’ on someone going to a big name Ivy school is for this very reason. Okay, they had good grades and scores but they also had the good fortune to either have wealthy parents or very poor parents. "</p>
<p>Again, it bears repeating, HYPS and some elite LAC’s give very generous grants to middle-class families making them less expensive than the sticker price for public schools. If your child has the stats, you should apply.</p>
<p>That hasn’t been my experience. The ‘elites’ still cost more and require more debt for a white, middle class income family. </p>
<p>So who is the smarter student? The one who went to an elite private school and graduated with tens of thousands in debt or the kid with the same stats and grades who went to State U and graduated with little or no debt. I’d take the latter.</p>
<p>Which one would you hire?</p>
<p>“That hasn’t been my experience. The ‘elites’ still cost more and require more debt for a white, middle class income family.”</p>
<p>I suspect it depends on what elite, how you define middle-class, how much they want the student, and perhaps, more importantly, how many kids are in college.</p>
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<p>California charges some of the lowest fees in the country for community college. I just looked up the fees at a random California Community College - $26/credit hour. Out-of-state rate is $216/hour. In NH, rates are around $183/hour for in-state and $418/hour for OOS. You can essentially go to community college for free in California with the American Opportunity Credit. I think that California is still more generous with it’s university system than are public universities in New England.</p>
<p>Why do you compare an Ivy, with financial aid, to the sticker price of a public university? You may as well compare both sticker prices, or both prices once financial aid is included. The fact is, if a student has the stats to be admitted to an Ivy, do you really think he/she wouldn’t also receive a scholarship (especially to one’s in-state universities)?</p>
<p>Compare no tuition and subsidized living and a public university to subsidized tuition at a private. Meaning, the former student graduates debt-free, like Rebecca in the article if she attends a university in Virginia, or with thousands of dollars of debt at a private (having $30,000 tuition discounted to $15,000 is not an amazing deal, comparatively).</p>
<p>One factor that hasn’t been considered as much is the relative quality of the applicant. Someone brought up the example of UVa, but suppose that Rebecca is not good enough to attend? She may think that attending a private university will give her amazing opportunities, but if she wasn’t smart enough to get into the flagship in the first place, how well do you think she’ll do in life, regardless of where she goes to school? The most intelligent thing she can do is minimize debt, as expecting “success” and a high-paying job is a bit fanciful in her case.</p>
<p>“Why do you compare an Ivy, with financial aid, to the sticker price of a public university? You may as well compare both sticker prices, or both prices once financial aid is included. The fact is, if a student has the stats to be admitted to an Ivy, do you really think he/she wouldn’t also receive a scholarship”</p>
<p>BG, the discussion is how to graduate debt free, not where you can pay the absolute lowest price. I told my kids we can afford the price of a state school. My D is able to attend an elite college for below the price we said we can pay. Therefore, she can graduate from an elite school debt free. Yes, the state school offered her a great scholarship and it is 2K less than the elite private. But the discussion is where she can go without incurring debt. Yes, it may be the wrong decision to go to a private school for the 6K increased cost since, as I mentioned before, I doubt there are better paying jobs. But, she does get small class sizes, world class professors, and the advantages of a small campus community. For her, intellectual engagement and a close community is very important. If we wanted to pay the absolute lowest price, going to a CC and living at home while attending the state flagship would be a no brainer.</p>
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<p>No, it’s a refusal to deal with reality that is driving this country into the toilet, from government to corporations to individuals. The reality of what wars cost in both human and financial terms; the reality that home prices do not always go up, up, up; the reality that what most of us have in our retirement accounts is not even close to what we will need; the reality of what recent college grads make; the reality of living with massive debt once the four years of “dream school” are over; the reality of how much profit can be ethical realized and so on. </p>
<p>So, no, i’ts not dogmatic and nannying, it’s the adult voice of realism trying to cut through the bastardized version of the American dream that anyone who can profit from getting your money is trying to sell you. Including private colleges. We’re all footing the bill for those who could make more responsible choices but deside that what they want, instead of what they need, is more important. I have no problem with carrying those whose choices are limited. In fact, for examle, I would be very happy for my taxes to go to a program where students with learning disabilities were able to attend the college that best meets their needs. </p>
<p>The idea that it is equally valid to send ones child out into the world with 50K+ of debt as it is to send them out in the world with zero debt when there is no “need” beyond “I want” and “dream school” is yet another manifestation of wishful thinking. If a parent has raised a child to believe that regret from not attending the dream college is equal to the regret of not being able to take job one loves, go to grad school, buy a home, have a child and so on, then the parent is responsible for that misinformation and should be footing the bill, not burdening their child.</p>
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<p>Well said. If it took our son going to CC and living at home to keep him debt free for undergrad, that’s what we would be doing. </p>
<p>One of the reasons we want him to be debt free from his undergrad is because not having to pay on our own student debt is part of the reason we are able to pay cash for what his is scholarship is not covering. It’s one of the many choices that remained open to us without the burden of student debt.</p>
<p>As parents, I think we get wrapped up in the idea that if our kids can get into that one perfect school, they will be set for the rest of their lives. And the kids quickly pick up on that. The truth is, there are probably many perfect/close to perfect schools for the vast majority of kids. Some of the best schools just aren’t worth paying for if anyone has to take on large debt and the future income won’t support it. </p>
<p>Post #167 was so good!</p>
<p>But if someone chooses to take on reasonable debt to go to the college of their choice I don’t think that is an irresponsible decision.</p>
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<p>What does that mean exactly, that there is no “need” involved. There is no “need” to go to college at all for that matter. You can live without going to college, that makes it a “want” rather than a “need”.</p>
<p>As a hypothetical, let’s say my daughter is in a position of choosing between our state school and a private “dream” college. Suppose she can graduate from the state school debt free but attending the dream college will leave her with 40K in debt.</p>
<p>At that point I would leave the decision up to her. She has to live with it, she gets to make it. I know 40K in debt is a lot and it might mean her not being able to own a car for awhile or her needing to live at home for awhile after graduation. But that might be an acceptable trade-off to her.</p>
<p>If she says to me I don’t want to go to the state school, I really think I would be better off at my dream school, who am I to tell her that’s wrong, you will be better off at the state school. How do I know? She is the one who is in the best position to know the best place for her.</p>
<p>It’s nice to graduate debt free but it might be worth it to take on reasonable debt to be able to go to a dream college. If it was me, I’d take the reasonable debt at the dream college. If that meant I couldn’t own a car right away after I graduated that is a trade off I would make gladly.</p>
<p>I agree with you in part Pea, but I think it’s up to the parent to decide what is “reasonable” debt for their child to take on. For many families, 40K would be reasonable. For others the max Stafford, 27K is what they consider reasonable. Hopefully, parents in either scenario map out with their child exactly what that reasonalbe debt will look like when it comes time to pay it back. And discuss things such as paying back the interest immediately. I just don’t think that 18 year olds are capable of fully comprehending what debt means down the road. H and I , with our D mapped out what a budget might look like for a 22 year old with rent, car, insurance, food, grad school, clothing, phone bill, paying back loan, etc. She had the option of a reasonable debt school or a no debt school – both privates. She went with the no debt, we think she made the right choice.
One other thing I was wondering, isn’t any debt over the Staffords really parent? If so, then the parent and kid really need to be in agreement on reasonable debt since a portion of it is the parents.
One thing I’ve learned over the last year, there is no one “right”, there are many rights and they are very family specific.</p>
<p>“It’s nice to graduate debt free but it might be worth it to take on reasonable debt to be able to go to a dream college. If it was me, I’d take the reasonable debt at the dream college. If that meant I couldn’t own a car right away after I graduated that is a trade off I would make gladly.”</p>
<p>Everyone’s circumstance is different. I personally think that 40K debt would be a small amount of debt to go to one’s dream college, particularly if they will be in a high paying career field. Many people think differently. On the other hand, I read a post from someone who had over 200K debt, a music degree, and a low paying job. An impossible situation to be in.</p>
<p>“isn’t any debt over the Staffords really parent? If so, then the parent and kid really need to be in agreement on reasonable debt since a portion of it is the parents.”</p>
<p>It seems many families will co-sign loans over and above the Stafford amount expecting the kids to be responsible for that. For my kids, I refused to co-sign any loans. For my son who wanted to go OOS, I believe there was an 8K/year gap between what we were willing to pay plus the Stafford. Since we wouldn’t co-sign, he went in-state which is the more prestigious school anyway.</p>
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<p>It’s not difficult to find angry parents who cannot believe they are actually having to pay debt they co-signed on. Believe me, by the time it gets to that point, most have abdicated whatever responsbility they would own up to when signing the papers. And it’s not just college, it’s cars and condos and you name it. </p>
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<p>This is what I’ve been trying to say, so thank you for saying it so well. </p>
<p>A phrase I truly loathe is “dream college”, which is odd because I like the two words so well but put together it’s carte blanche for decisions that sane people would otherwise not make for an 18 year old. </p>
<p>Also, leading children to believe that there is one route to happiness, and insisting that it’s dream college or regret is doing just that, is just setting them up for a lifetime of disappointment. There is no way that a child is going to go to the dream college, get the dream job, marry the dream spouse, have the dream kids and so on. Adults who believe that they deserve all of that because they have worked hard are truly unpleasant human beings. Adults who understand that regret is a choice, and typically a selfish choice at that, cope much better. </p>
<p>Speaking of being irresponsible with money, I’d bet my house (although not my kids house) that kids who are raised on the “you need the dream college” ideal wind up as less happy adults than kids who are raised on the “you can make it work” ideal. Well, for one thing the kids in the second group don’t have to deal with a lot of debt, which we know is very stressful. </p>
<p>I do want to add that I know that circumstances are different and there is no one size fits all answer. Having said that, what I read here at CC is a vast majority of “our kid could do fine at college X but they deserve/have earned/will regret not going to the dream college.” This is somehow justified by pointing out that 10% of students have genuine needs that cannot be met at a lower priced college. To which I can only scratch my head and hope that the student themselves has a finacial epiphany before their college career is over.</p>
<p>I’m just not clear on how living through the current recession seems to have had so little impact on the idea of starting 22 year olds out with large debt.</p>
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<p>I don’t make decisions for my 18 year old.</p>
<p>Maybe I should expand on my answer. I know kids who have chosen colleges that haven’t worked out for them. Of course some of those stories concern students who attended state schools. But this year I know of two kids who are leaving very highly ranked private schools during their freshman year and coming home and it wasn’t because of finances. Things just didn’t work out. I don’t want to name the schools because I don’t want to reveal too much.</p>
<p>My motivation for my college search for both of my kids is to find a school that is a good fit for them. I want them to love college as much as I did and I want to set them up with a good educational foundation to embark on their life as an adult.</p>
<p>I don’t have any illusions this will guarantee their happiness. Life is hard, they’ll probably be happy some of the time, they’ll probably not be happy some of the time. Right now I just want to ensure their success in college, the odds of which are increased if we visit a variety of colleges and then they tell me where they want to go. Then if they can get in and we can afford it that’s where they’ll be.</p>
<p>There are situations where it is worth it for the student or parents to take on the debt. They should know the implications of that monthly payment before they sign those papers, and many don’t. They are too caught up in the excitement of going to a college. </p>
<p>My parents always told us that we needed to get scholarship money to go to college. Otherwise it would be whatever college had the military contract for higher education since one of my dad’s benefits was free tuition for his kids at that particular college. </p>
<p>What I did not know, and many parents and kids do not know, is how the scholarship system works. They do not know if they are going to be eligible for financial aid, for one thing. They do not know that many colleges gap. They do not know that ivies and many other top schools do not give merit scholarships. They don’t know how PROFILE works. I did not know. Neither did my parents.</p>
<p>When I applied to my schools, I remember being puzzled at the differences in “scholarship” packages I was offered. Now I know that two of those schools met 100% of need, but did not give any merit money. I also got merit packages at two colleges that more than paid the entire cost of college. When I applied, I had no idea that some schools met full need, most schools do not, about merit within need, that some schools had no merit scholarships. I just figured with high test scores, high grades, and a desirable profile, I would get a nice scholarship. It did not occur to me that my father, who earned a decent living, would have to meet financial need guidelines before I got any government money. </p>
<p>Trying to explain all of this these days to families who have no idea how all of this works is difficult. That the EFC means nothing other than eligibility for the PELL grant in most cases. I don’t know how many families I’ve met that have an EFC of about $20K, and have aspiration of private colleges for their kids, and are completely dumfounded when they find out that all they will get from the govt is subsidized loans, and not enough to pay the COA of most private colleges. </p>
<p>My friend right now is devastated at the package her daughter received. It is loaded with the subsidized Staffords, some Pell money, work study, Perkins loan and a little bit of scholarship money, gapping her by about $15-18K per year. That means in addition to what their EFC is, someone has to borrow close to $80K over four years and that does not count the loans in the package. Working during the school year is not going to help since free time is already taken into account with work study.</p>
<p>“We’re all footing the bill for those who could make more responsible choices but deside that what they want, instead of what they need, is more important.”</p>
<p>I am footing the bill for all those “responsible people” attending UVA, VTech, James Madison, and Christopher Newport. Depending on what state you are in, you are footing the bill for “responsible” people too. </p>
<p>I am all for people being responsible. The constant reiteration of the meme that people who take out loans to go to private U’s are somehow freeloaders on society, while folks attending state universities that soak up billions of dollars in subsidies, are not, would be laughable - if it werent associated with constant judgementalism. </p>
<p>Unless you are paying the full cost of your state U, including the amount of tax payer subsidy, you too are getting what you want. You may be more personally prudent than someone taking out big loans, but the notion that you are some are some kind of hardy self sufficient American pioneer, saving the US from all the evil debtors and freeloades, is ludicrous.</p>
<p>“when there is no “need” beyond “I want” and “dream school””</p>
<p>see i dont understand this sentence. When we weighed options, we didnt just say “need” or “dream school” we went into detail on the programs offered, the quality of teaching, the nature of the experience, average salaries BY MAJOR, grad school acceptances, etc, etc. And then weighed those against the differing costs. And yes, we chose a middle option - the cheaper (by far) of two private colleges, but not a state school. </p>
<p>Who here lives in the cheapest housing they can manage? I don’t mean you avoided buying a macmansion with a subprime loan - I mean did you consider having two kids to an room (which was common where I grew up)? Did you give up ANY television? Did you get a house or apt in an inner city with a school system some look down on? </p>
<p>I suspect most folks, including most of the folks who are judgemental about college choices, could easily live on a thousand or more less a month. </p>
<p>They choose not to. The difference in their lives is worth it to them. And they judge that they can afford it.</p>
<p>But somehow if you choose to spend it on college, you get a reaction that you would not get if you spent it on almost anything else.</p>
<p>“What I did not know, and many parents and kids do not know, is how the scholarship system works.”</p>
<p>education (in this instance about the fin aid process) is good. We were fortunate that in DD’s sophomore year, we attended a CTY program on the college application process, which included a good overview of the financial aid process. For the most part, what we have since encountered has not been that surprising, though we have continued to encounter various nuances.</p>