<p>(grin) OK, interesteddad... so the kids are from Penn and Villanova... so why did you bring up HC? :)</p>
<p>I can guarantee that any "goons" at HC are no taller than 6', weigh no more than 180 lbs, probably don't even need to shave on a daily basis, are "quirky" and graduated in the top 5-10% of their HS class. Even HC's most "traditionally masculine" of sports teams, lacrosse, does yoga. </p>
<p>There's something that still doesn't ad up. The vast majority of people from Penn, Villanova and HC who would know about the dance and who would go are people with interest in the symposium. There have been several events like this at HC this year, and I haven't read of any homphobic issues occurring. The dance is one of Swat's most fun and a lot of SC students do invite their friends/significant others as well... so those people may not be as open-minded... with some of those people going to HC or elsewhere but I don't know for sure. I'm trusting the accuracy of the Phoenix op-ed but exaggerations and partial perspectives have been known to have made it to print before.</p>
<p>BTW, when I said "different way of doing things", I meant the explicit and confrontational nature of <em>some</em> chalkings (compared to HC and probably midwest Carleton too), not the act itself which occurs on many campuses.</p>
I think your information on this one is dated. The amount of non-Swarthmore interlopers at Gender F-ck has risen steadily over the years, including a growing Haverford contingent. When you were at Haverford over 10 years ago, you would have been right about what you said, but things have changed. I imagine the majority of upperclassmen at Haverford are aware of Sager's existence.</p>
<p>So, like I said before, something didn’t feel right with this Sager thing.
I checked the Phoenix (and Gazette) and was able to find 2 op-ed pieces related to the events. I read them. I agreed with them 100%. Interesting though (to the credit of the authors) that there was no scape goating and finger pointing. No mention of Penn, Villanova, Haverford or non-Swarthmore students. No mention of Williams students either (grin). No mention of “goons” or “knuckledraggers” as well. </p>
<p>In fairness to interesteddad, is there a 3rd op-ed describing the events?
<insert smiley="" face="" here=""></insert></p>
<p>AE: I agree with you that (likely) more HC students are going to Sager and Gender F-ck. There are 2 reasons for this, though, with one being more likely. Either more students know about the event/advertising is better or there are significantly more openly lesbian, bisexual and gay students at HC. The latter I know is true. Regarding the 1st possibility, student body memory is short. There is 100% turnover every 4 years, 25% turnover every year and 1/8 of the student body (1/2 of juniors) study abroad. What is known is quickly lost (that’s why the same “issues” spring up every year like daffodils… a HC professor once told me). Unless advertising for Tri-co events is somehow remarkably better than when I was there (no evidence for this that I’m aware), the majority of bi-co kids who go to Sager Dance are kids in SAGA, InQueery, their friends or friends of Swat students in similar organizations.</p>
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We do feel it prudent to mention a brief account of the night before going further: specifically, that Haverford and Villanova students showed up at the party, acting hostilely at our house and making inappropriate advances at women, and that we removed them from the house after we were approached about their actions.
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<p>I have no idea about bi-co. I do know that attendance at the Sager dance is not even remotely limited or tilted towards GLBT students at Swarthmore. It is one of the major parties of the year (and the wildest).</p>
<p>a) I hate buzzwords like "convervative". What does that mean?</p>
<p>b) If you are politically conservative, Swarthmore might or might not be fun, depending on how much you enjoy debating politics. Someone who really enjoys debating politics from an intellectually-supportable conservative framework could have a ball at Swarthmore.</p>
<p>c) If you are socially conservative in the sense that gay dorm-mates offend you and so forth, then Swarthmore (and most elite residential colleges) probably isn't for you. Acceptance of diverse ethnicities, genders, sexual orientations, etc. is pretty ingrained at Swarthmore.</p>
<p>d) In key ways, Swarthmore is a very conservative institution. For example, the academic rigor is fundamentally conservative. The expectation of individual adult responsibility is fundamentally conservative. Even in living arrangements, Swarthmore is more conservative than some of its peers. For example, except in rare cases, females and males don't share bathrooms in dorms.</p>
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ID, I think there is gender-neutral housing now available (thou not to freshmen).
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<p>Actually, starting this coming fall, there will be gender-neutral housing available to freshmen as well! :) And also this year, tons more spaces opened up for being gender neutral both in rooms and bathrooms, so in living arrangements Swarthmore is among the most liberal, I'd argue.</p>
<p>Swarthmore has been the exception with designated male/female restrooms in all first-year dorms until next year. I haven't looked at the floor plans, but the only gender-neutral first year housing will be the first floor of David Kemp (I think). That is very few slots.</p>
<p>Swarthmore remains the exception in offering the choice of male or female segregated housing. For example, I don't believe that Williams has any male/female segregated housing.</p>
<p>Mission, where approx. 1/2 the frosh are housed at Williams, has a floor layout that separates male from female so they don't share bathrooms. It's kind of hard to explain, because the floors aren't separate, and the common room is the same, but the bathrooms aren't. Which isn't to say that they don't use each other's bathrooms.</p>
<p>Oh, and I am posting on Swarthmore's board just as a point of fact. No, I didn't troll for Williams. I just posted something I hope is helpful on the Bryn Mawr board (not about any school I am connected with.)</p>
<p>I have been reading this thread because I am a college prof. and am addicted to thinking about colleges, especially wonderful institutions like Bryn Mawr and Swarthmore. And I am called upon to counsel our transfer students (CC) all the time.</p>
<p>
[quote]
AE: I agree with you that (likely) more HC students are going to Sager and Gender F-ck. There are 2 reasons for this, though, with one being more likely. Either more students know about the event/advertising is better or there are significantly more openly lesbian, bisexual and gay students at HC. The latter I know is true. Regarding the 1st possibility, student body memory is short. There is 100% turnover every 4 years, 25% turnover every year and 1/8 of the student body (1/2 of juniors) study abroad. What is known is quickly lost (that’s why the same “issues” spring up every year like daffodils… a HC professor once told me). Unless advertising for Tri-co events is somehow remarkably better than when I was there (no evidence for this that I’m aware), the majority of bi-co kids who go to Sager Dance are kids in SAGA, InQueery, their friends or friends of Swat students in similar organizations.
[/quote]
Since the trend of a larger off-campus presence at Gender F-ck doesn't just include Bi-Co students, I'd say it points to something besides a rising gay/bisexual population at Haverford. The most likely culprit is word of mouth. The other is the internet. SAGA may not have even had a website 10+ years ago, for all I know. If it did, it may not have been as trafficked. Now it does, and it even mentions Sager on it. The capacity of the internet to inform people has grown enormously in the last 10 years. No doubt this, and the not entirely unrelated phenomenon of word of mouth have gotten Gender F-ck a reputation that extends well off campus now.</p>
<p>It's interesting how this thread as evolved. The OP seems to wish to attend Swat or Haverford for some reason not stated by him. I think much of the answer depends on which dept. he wishes to study in--the sciences are fairly apolitical while history and english are more leftish. Without knowing why he is drawn to these two schools, it's hard to make a recommendation. On the face of it, its seems like an unlikely choice for a social conservative. I do think that the student life style at Swat is very conservative--relatively sober, extremely studious, clean cut, down to earth students. It is a place known producing for future college professors/phds and not mba types. Very idealistic, socially conscientious people.</p>
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I do think that the student life style at Swat is very conservative
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<p>I agree. That's why I get so frustrated when people ask question like "is Swarthmore liberal or conservative" without specifying anything about what they mean.</p>
<p>Liberal politics certainly dominates the scene at Swarthmore. But, educationally and culturally, it's "old-school".</p>
<p>I don't think that you can make sweeping generalizations about departments or students. There are many students interested in finance. One can easily take English or History classes that are traditional.</p>
<p>I know several students who are socially conservative and apolitical at Swarthmore. They tend to do what they are interested in and ignore what they see as the fringe activities, such as the explicit chalkings.</p>
<p>I think in a way they are more open minded than what I see as the vocal lunatic fringe at Swarthmore, who always have something to prove and shove in one's face. </p>
<p>I personally think these vocal obnoxious students are immature, and they do not give enough credit to the quieter ones for their tolerance of them. This tolerance says more for the Swarthmore students in general than the offensivenes of some of the actions of the more "liberal" ones (whom I would argue are actually more totalitarian due to their inability to acknowledge more moderate views.)</p>
<p>I also think it's hard to generalize about departments. For example, the History Dept's Africa expert, Tim Burke, has suggested that the best thing the West could do for Africa is end all foreign aid. I'm not sure that a "liberal" political position.</p>
<p>The takeaway point here is that, at least through academic year 2007-08, all Swarthmore first year students were given the option of all-male or all-female housing and all Swarthmore first year student housing had separate male/female bathrooms.</p>
<p>That remains the case for 2008-09, with the exception of six first-year doubles (3 in David Kemp 1st floor, 3 in Willets basement) on floors with gender-neutral bathrooms. Thus, a maximum of 12 first year students out of 370 will be able to live on floors with gender-neutral bathrooms.</p>
<p>In comparison to many of its peers, Swarthmore remains more "conservative" in terms of housing arrangements. Many schools no longer offer single-sex housing to those who prefer it. Many schools do not offer as much housing with separate male/female bathrooms.</p>