These are two liberal arts colleges in PA.
First of all, I want to ask which of the two is more liberal? I tend to swing on the conservative side and I can’t stand ultra liberals (no offense). I have a feeling Swarthmore is more liberal, but I know Hav is very liberal too. I’m also gay so since these colleges are very liberal they will obviously be VERY accepting of me, but I know I really won’t get along with the very liberal ones.
Also, Swarthmore is much harder to get into so I’m thinking of applying early decision 2 to Haverford instead since that bumps the acceptance rate up to 50% but only around 34% for Swat, but heres the thing: for Swarthmore I got two recommendations, one from an Alum and another from a DR at HUP (Hospital of university of Penn) who KNOWS THE DEAN. For Haverford I only got a recommendation from a 25 year alum whos been doing interviews for the college. Will having those two recommendations for swat make it significantly more likely for me to get in? Swat is the better of the two colleges academically, but is it worth going even though I probably won’t politically align with most of the people? When I visited Hav the people seemed more althletic and less into academics than swat people and I like that since in HS I put everything into academics and had no fun and it was horrible.
What do I do?!!
I’m going to apply ED 2 to either one no matter what
THanks so much!!!
If you’re applying ED to any school, be sure that you actually want to attend. In your post I notice that you describe yourself as conservative and yet are applying to two of the more liberal campuses in the US. You will find acceptance from them, I think and I hope, because of the Quaker tradition of listening and tolerance that these schools try to impart, but I’m not sure if you will be happy as you “can’t stand ultra liberals” and that you “really won’t get along with the very liberal ones.” Neither school sounds like the right place for you.
Both schools are equal, in my mind, in terms of their academics, but they have somewhat different cultures. At Swarthmore the culture seems to be more overtly competitive academically, meaning that students compete among themselves and the classes tend to push academics in a more urgent way. Students there thrive on that push-foward, compete-with-others, overtly-clever atmosphere. Haverford has measures in place to reduce the stress of academics, reduce competitiveness among the students. That difference may be why the “feel” of the campuses when you visited was different. One is for people who thrive on that competitive atmosphere while others thrive on focusing on their own work and not caring what others are doing; that’s really up to them – that sort of attitude.
In the end, because of your statements of not being able to tolerate “ultra liberals” I suggest gently that you look at other fine schools in Pennsylvania, as that seems to be your target state. Perhaps consider these schools with larger numbers of conservative people –
- Penn State
- Lehigh
- LaFayette
- Villanova
- Franklin and Marshall
- Gettysburg
Neither of these schools seems to be a good fit for you. And neither letter will do a lick of good. Your letters from your core academic teachers will do you more good.
Why these two schools? Is it because you hope to take a few classes at Penn or something? That isn’t a good reason. What about Claremont McKenna?
Swarthmore and Haverford have Quaker roots. Haverford stressed their honor code much more than Swarthmore.
You will need to write an essay about the Honor code to get into Haverford College. If you tour, they will explain it to you. It seems that that students take exams in their dorm rooms, and there are no proctored exams at Haverford, is my understanding, but ask.
I would say you can find people that dislike or shun gay students anywhere, including Swarthmore and Haverford.
But for comparison, Haverford is closer to the train into Phili and classes at U of Penn, and also you can walk to Bryn Mawr. The odd thing about Haverford is its so female dominant, as its more than half women and Bryn Mawr is an all women’s college with full cross registration between them. So its 3/4 female college environment, given how close together the two schools are located. Also the swimming pool is at Bryn Mawr, so for recreation you may end up
over at Bryn Mawr too, so be sure to tour both schools.
Swarthmore is more remote in the Chester area, and about 1/3 of the students take part in a masters like thesis, one on one with a professor. It is technically a bachelors thesis but it tends to be pretty advanced in content is why I call it a “masters” thesis. Also Swarthmore has less grade inflation and offers pass fail for at least a semester for students to adjust to the rigors of college life there. Swarthmore has the motto “where fun comes to die”. One of my friends visited Swarthmore to look it over as a faculty candidate and he asked some students “Where do you go for ice cream?” and the students said “We don’t have time to find off campus ice cream, we study here”.
Its pretty intense and isolating, to attend Swarthmore, and I think it may destroy self esteem in some students,
but if you are aiming for a PhD, Swarthmore may be a fit.
Haverford is just a bit easier academically.
Socially, both are sort of stifling, with only one cafeteria and everyone knowing each other by year two, so every student feels the need to “get off campus” to a study abroad for some social variety. Socially, bigger schools are better for anyone, I would say.
I like some of the other choices Dustyfeathers suggests for a better social life.
But if you want the small intense liberal arts environment, then Swarthmore or Haverford may fit the bill.
Haverford is considerably easier to get admitted. Swarthmore is looking for a very intellectually sophisticated student,
so if that describes you, it could be a fit.
They both have truly beautiful campuses, with slate roofed buildings and near a big city, so you can get into Philadelphia from either campus. There is a train from Swarthmore, too, but Haverford is right on the very frequent Main Line train into Phili. .
Just to correct one thing from @coloradomama’s post: the train into Philadelphia from Swarthmore is literally at the foot of the campus and runs regularly. It is no farther from campus than the Haverford train is (maybe even closer). Furthermore, Swarthmore actually has a bit more of a town right nearby than Haverford does–at least some diners, pizza shops and the co-op supermarket. So if you are deciding between the two (and there may be other reasons why neither would suit you–they are BOTH very liberal), Swarthmore is certainly no more “isolating” than Haverford is.
OP – these as you can see are very different schools. Before applying ED you may want to be sure to know which you prefer to attend, if either of them.
Quoting from the above post:
“dislike or shun gay students anywhere, including Swarthmore and Haverford”
Actually, I would be shocked to find students who dislike or shun gay people at either institution. But I may be wrong. Just my impression. Nothing is impossible I suppose.
" you can walk to Bryn Mawr"
You can walk to Bryn Mawr, but it’s a pretty big hike. I’ve done it several times. Most people take the blue buses.
“The odd thing about Haverford is its so female dominant, as its more than half women”
It is technically more than half women, but it’s nearly 50%-50% balanced genders. Haverford is 51.9% women and 48.1% men currently. Swarthmore is 50.9% women and 49.1% men. In sharp contrast.
“The swiming pool is at Bryn Mawr.”
The two campuses (three really) coordinate several departments. Linguisitcs if I’m remembering correctly is coordinated among all three schools. Several music groups are shared among all three schools. Haverford provides the studio art for BMC students while BMC offers geology. The schools all three work in cooperation. If you attend events and classes at all three schools the gender ratio for them is about 60%-40% women to men, the same as at most other liberal arts colleges.
Swarthmore is not unique in having a thesis requirement. Bryn Mawr and Haverford both require theses. They also are known as major feeder schools for Ph.D. students, like Swarthmore.
"Swarthmore is more remote in the Chester area, and about 1/3 of the students take part in a masters like thesis, one on one with a professor. It is technically a bachelors thesis but it tends to be pretty advanced in content is why I call it a “masters” thesis. Also Swarthmore has less grade inflation and offers pass fail for at least a semester for students to adjust to the rigors of college life there. Swarthmore has the motto “where fun comes to die”. One of my friends visited Swarthmore to look it over as a faculty candidate and he asked some students “Where do you go for ice cream?” and the students said “We don’t have time to find off campus ice cream, we study here. Its pretty intense and isolating, to attend Swarthmore, and I think it may destroy self esteem in some students,”
“Swarthmore is looking for a very intellectually sophisticated student”
^^This in a nutshell describes the difference in “feel” between the campuses. Some people, apparently like @Coloradomama , thrive on this sort of intellectual and academic competitiveness. It’s not for everyone. Haverford works to dispel this sort of intellectualism-for-the-sake-of-intellectualism, for lack of a better term. The people who attend Haverford understand that it’s not necessary nor desirable to “destroy self-esteem” for academic and intellectual growth. The H/BMC model of learning seems to hold that there are other things in life beyond intellectual one-up-manship.
I’ve personally never met anyone who attended Swarthmore who said that they enjoyed it. One of my neighbors, however, currently says that her grandson is having a great time in physics there.
Students of H and Swat tend to go on to great careers of their choosing.
“Socially, both are sort of stifling, with only one cafeteria and everyone knowing each other by year two”
I’m not sure that this is accurate from the Haverford/ BMC perspective. I know/ have known people who intend to stay / have stayed all four years in this environment and long to return as alumni for years. Also, there are several cafeterias to choose from, because of the consortium. That @Coloradomama describes the social life as “stifling” may be a function of Swarthmore’s isolation–students not getting around as much as do H/BMC students. Haverford and BMC are closer and share facilities more, have different-looking campuses, have a commercial strip and small town outside of their gates, students get into Philly more often. This may account for the difference in my perception of NOT stifling and her perception of stifling. Also, as @Coloradomama said that Swarthmore students don’t have time to get ice cream or have fun, maybe that’s why the students find it stiffling there. I don’t know. Just speculation. The H/BMC students have some fun.
My impression would be that the question is not whether or not people accept gay students on campus but more do you have the right flavor of politics around sexuality and will you be comfortable with the discourse around sexuality on either campus. If you lean more towards the conservative side in any areas, I have a very strong feeling Haverford would be the easier place to fit in. It is also my opinion that Haverford can be a very lightweight school academically depending on how you construct your roster of classes. All Swarthmore students that I have met are very intensely intellectual and completely challenged academically whereas Haverford has more of a mix of experiences. I know someone who went there some years ago who only wrote a single paper in 4 years and was able to avoid classes that required reading books. I went to a lesser-selective SLAC and that would have been completely impossible at my school. Recent experiences with Haverford grads have given me the impression it hasn’t changed much. Quaker process demands that your ideas are respected which might not be as strong a reality at Swarthmore.
Personally, If I was on the conservative side politically I would not bother with either school. But you may find it to be a stimulating atmosphere as well.
Both are very liberal, so you’ll have a tough time socially if you expect to find a large group of conservative friends. Both are very accepting of gay students. Neither college is easy, lightweight, or whatever people are saying. Swat has a more competitive vibe, so if that appeals to you apply there. Neither will be easy ED2; I’m not sure what the true percentages are but realize that there are hooked students applying ED and it absolutely makes the acceptance rates seem higher than they are for a regular applicant.
I agree that the list of other PA colleges that have more conservative students is worth your consideration, and that those letters of recommendation aren’t really going to make a difference. And I completely disagree with the idea that Haverford is easy or that a student can get through it without writing far, far more than one paper. Don’t listen to hearsay in any case - go visit, meet the students, sit in on classes - before you even consider applying ED.
I find it impossible to believe that a Haverford student can get through with writing a single paper. That seems apocryphal. There’s a writing-intensive requirement as part of the foundation. And a thesis at the end. Two writing-intensive endeavors before the starter pistol fires.
All of the schools in the consortia are top-level schools, but with different cultures and atmospheres. All are Ph.D. feeder schools. The graduates tend to be very successful.
I won’t comment further because this is devolving into a debate – which is not allowed on CC. However the language that the Swat-favoring commenters here shows the innate edgy competitiveness of that school IMHO compared with the language of commenters here that prefer the schools that have instituted cultures to eliminate undue competitiveness.
If what you like about Haverford and Swarthmore is the Quaker environment, look at Guilford, Earlham, and some of the other Quaker colleges. Not as hideously difficult to get into, and perhaps not so overwhelmingly liberal.
@Dustyfeathers this was years ago and it was someone who I was very close to who went there. I was at a similar college in the same years so we compared notes a lot. They have likely changed their curriculum since then but that made an impression on me.
I have worked with a lot of students from both in recent years (interns) and students from both colleges are extremely impressive. But I have always gotten the impression that Haverford allows more academic breathing room, so to speak, if you are strategic about which classes you take.
My middle daughter attended Bryn Mawr, took classes at Haverford, and participated in 2 Tri-Co programs. I’m providing her impressions.
All three schools are liberal, probably on the side of very liberal.
The level of academics is not appreciably different between Haverford and Swarthmore. I’ve never heard Haverford described as a lightweight school! All three schools require thesis writing and all three schools require writing intensive classes freshman year. You’re not going to graduate from any of them without doing some heavy reading and writing, no matter what major you choose. Don’t take my word for it. Check out the general and major requirements.
Swarthmore tends to attract more prestige-conscious students and there is an air of intensity and intellectual one upmanship. My youngest daughter looked at Swat briefly and was turned off by that vibe. Haverford is very consciously connected to its Quaker roots, with emphasis on the quality of humility. The honor code is very much alive on that campus and it’s renewed every year. (This is true at Bryn Mawr as well, though to a slightly lesser extent. My daughter didn’t feel affected by a competitive environment because their honor code prohibited any discussion of grades between classmates.) What I always heard was that the students wanting Haverford were searching for an environment that provided rigorous academics, intellectual curiosity, and just as important, a strong sense of collegiality. I know of at least 2 kids who thought they wanted Swat, visited, and ended up applying to Haverford instead.
Don’t get the idea that it’s “much easier” to get into Haverford either. It’s a tiny school and it looks carefully at grades ** and ** fit. They want to make sure that the prospective student takes the honor code very seriously and they won’t accept the kid who doesn’t passes both hurdles. Acceptance rates do not tell the whole story.
I like dustyfeather’s and happymomof1’s suggestions for other schools that might work better for you.
One LAC that has a reputation for being less liberal is Washington and Lee. Have you looked there? Also, I suspect, but don’t know, that the same is true for Davidson.
Personally, I fell in love with Swat when I visited with my daughter last year. However, I did note that some of the students seemed a little–how should I say this?–strident in their views when we sat in on a political science discussion class, undoubtedly based on what they’ve read and not what they’ve personally experienced. Yet major props for the professor in that class, who emphasized that his job was not to tell the students what to think, but just to lay out competing positions in the particular issue they were discussing. So, from that experience, I’d say you probably won’t be “indoctrinated” by the professors, although some of the students may make you uncomfortable.
I’ve heard the students at Swat described as kids who like to stay in and study Friday night instead of going out to parties–not necessarily because of the workload and pressure to do well, but the way they are. That’s my daughter. You have to decide if that describes you–if not, you may be unhappy there.
Let me add, as an aside, that I find it incredibly sad that you seem to want to join a flock of like-minded students instead of being with those with different views, and learning from each other. I know that’s the way things are now. It’s a depressing state of the way things are, unfortunately.
This sounds like a case of “streetlight syndrome”. The OP is interested in these two schools because they are the two schools he has managed to get LORs for. Add the irony of a gay applicant avoiding “extremely liberal” politics when 90% of all campus politics revolve around identity, and I can well understand how confusing his predicament might be. I agree with what others have posted. The LORs shouldn’t be the engine that propels the process. If you have the CV to get into Swarthmore or Haverford, you should be looking at T50 colleges and universities outside the northeast, if avoiding liberals is as paramount as you paint it.
“What do I do?!!”
Be mindful of this episode title from Law & Order: Criminal Intent, using it instructively: “Please Note We Are No Longer Accepting Letters of Recommendation from Henry Kissinger”.
Re-read post #2.
“I’ve personally never met anyone who attended Swarthmore who said that they enjoyed it.” I recognize that this is a statement of one individual’s reality, but I could provide scores of (equally anecdotal) counter examples. Lots of kids are happy there; lots of alums WERE happy there; the same is true of Haverford. Neither school is joyless and neither is especially competitive (as in, individual v individual), as compared to other top-tier small LACs. “Where fun goes to die” is not even a Swat thing; that’s U of Chicago. And in any case, it’s hardly a motto.
But all of that is actually kind of beside the point, if we limit the point to what the OP is asking. And as far as that goes, I completely agree with @Waiting2exhale - Re-read Post #2.
You can’t go wrong with these great choices! Both are excellent colleges. They share all the best qualities of a top LAC- small classes, brilliant professors who form close relationships with students, smart students who love learning for its own sake, great extracurriculars, tight communities, etc. Moreover, both of them are in lovely suburban communities with fast and easy train access to Philadelphia. So, overall, they are more alike than different.
I personally have known happy people at both, and on College Confidential I have read reports of both happy (mostly) and disgruntled (few) students at both.
Some key differences:
- Closeness to Bryn Mawr:
There is the TriCo with Haverford, Bryn Mawr and Swarthmore. So consortium advantages exist at both. But Haverford has the closer relationship with Bryn Mawr, even dividing expertise in departments, etc., and is closer physically. The two are quite intertwined.
That means that Haverford has all the advantages of a small college but that it loses some of the disadvantages of a small college because of the increased opportunities, both academically and socially. Best of both worlds!
On the other hand, the closeness with Bryn Mawr is the main reason I (a heterosexual female) did not apply to Haverford back when I was in high school: too many women around!
- Honor Code in existence (Swat) vs. Honor Code at the center of pretty much everything, starting from the application essay (Haverford):
I remember my favorite line from a comparison of the two colleges in some ancient thread I once read on College Confidential. I searched for it but could not find it to give credit to the creative poster. The line was better and more amusingly written than this, but it was something like:
“Haverford students are very proud of and serious about their Honor Code.
Swarthmore students, hearing someone talk like that about an Honor Code, would roll their eyes.”
I think that comparison, while exaggerated, captures something important.
Haverford exaggerated stereotype: earnest Boy Scout types.
Swarthmore exaggerated stereotype: intellectuals and cynics.
Some would find one of those stereotypes more appealing than the other.
(Of course, both schools actually have students with a variety of personalities. Stereotypes do not cover everyone, or even most people, at a school.)
- Everyone says Swarthmore has a super intense workload. If it is really heavier than that of Haverford, or of the college I know best (Williams), which is pretty heavy, I don’t know how anyone would survive it! But there are plenty of posters on CC, and people I know, who LOVED Swarthmore and had enough time for clubs, sports, friends, etc.
- Both are more liberal than conservative, but Swarthmore is probably a bit more so. Rumor has it that Spiro Agnew once referred to Swarthmore as “the Kremlin on the Crum.” I also remember another line I loved about Swarthmore vs. Williams, which I searched for and will include here because it is a funny commentary on Swarthmore. Credit to original poster @falconflyer :
Great choices, OP! Enjoy the search and good luck.
^Sounds like the OP should be looking at Williams. 
@TheGreyKing as a Swat alum, and parent of a Swat '18 alum, I absolutely loved your quote from @falconflyer. And I will not dispute it at least as far as Swat is concerned.