Swarthmore or Ivies?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
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<p>Very good point @JHS. Another thing to consider is that college golf in the Northeast is often played in brutal weather such as howling wind and driving rain. When the OP is comparing his scores to say the Harvard team, under similarly harsh conditions and 7000+ yard courses, could he honestly put up the kinds of scores they do?</p>

<p>It also raises the question of how realistic OP’s goal of becoming a professional really is, even if he was in a warmer climate.</p>

<p>An informal poll of professional athletes from all different sports found that the majority believed that golf was the most difficult sport to play. I don’t know of any sport where a kid who is not one of the top HS players coming out of high school has a viable shot at becoming a pro. According to OP, you can be a 4 handicap in college or start at age 19 and be a top professional or beat Tiger Woods. These anecdotes aside, however, I firmly believe that all endeavors require the proverbial 10,000 hours of practice; and after logging those kind of hours, if you’re not near the top of the pile, it is most likely not meant to be.</p>

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<p>If I haven’t made it clear, If golf does not work out, I will go to grad school. It seems that the majority of posts seem to be written with the presumption that I am going golf or bust. that is not the case. I know how the slim the chances are no matter what division you’re playing in. I simply want to give it a shot; I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Everybody knows how hard it is to become a pro in any sport and I think that point has been unnecessarily repeated too often. I think instead of focusing on how hard it is to become a professional golfer, we should focus at the question at hand – Are the Ivies/Stanford so much greater than Swarthmore that I should give up the almost guaranteed opportunity of playing golf at Swat and apply to the Ivies and Stanford and try to walk on to one of their teams? That is all I want answered. If you have experience at the Ivies,Stanford, or Swat, please contribute. </p>

<p>@falcon1 @dunboyne Yes, it’s a mixture of scoring average and the strength of the tournament schedule(if that makes sense).</p>

<p>@GBbobcat I think I’ve made it pretty obvious that we’re past the recruiting stage and that I’d have to walk on to the Ivies.</p>

<p>@JHS Swarthmore has access to a great course a few minutes away.</p>

<p>Also, @falcon1, becoming a pro golfer for anyone is not a realistic goal. The youngest kid to ever qualify for the PGA Tour(17 years old) is now a nobody. There are golfers who weren’t that great that are now fairly successful. Golf is a fickle game where one can easily “click” and become great very quickly or easily lose it and go down the ranks very quickly. Being a successful touring pro is not a realistic goal for anybody. But it has been done, and I only want to give a shot at it. If it was golf or bust, I might have not even went to college and just played golf. But I do have some sense, and realize I need a backup plan. That’s why I worked hard in school as well as on the golf course. If you have any information on whether the Ivies/Stanford are great enough for me to leave the Swat opportunity, please do tell. As for the chances of becoming a professional golfer, I think that point has been reiterated throughout this thread. However, I’d like to thank you. I realize you are acting in my best interest, and do not want me to pursue a dream that I might not get and end up unsuccesful, unemployed, etc. I thank you for that. I realize the risk of giving pro golf a shot and that is why I’d like to attend a college with amazing academics(like Swat), so that I have something that can back me up.</p>

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<p>As a Harvard and Yale parent, I’ll try to answer that question. The undergraduate education you will receive at HYPS is no better than you would get at Swarthmore. In fact, because of Swarthmore’s small size, I would imagine that professors are more able to give students individualized attention – and you don’t have teaching assistants. </p>

<p>IMHO, The difference comes down to 1. the people you meet, 2. the cost you pay.</p>

<ol>
<li>The people you meet. You are going to meet people at HYPS that you would never meet at Sawrthmore. Some of those people might become your friends for life; they may even become a co-worker later in your life (think Bill and Hillary, Barack and Michele, Dick Cheney and George Bush). </li>
<li>The cost. I’ve said this before, but as an upper middle class family, my kids are attending HY for less than the cost of their flagship state school. My kids didn’t apply to Swarthmore, but they were accepted to similar schools (Williams, Pomona, Middlebury) and the financial aid is just not as good. Those schools would have cost our family tens of thousands of dollars more per year. If we had to pay full fare (or close to it) for Swarthmore, Harvard or Yale – I wouldn’t do it. My kids would be getting a great education at our local state school.</li>
</ol>

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<p>The question whether the Ivies are so great that you should turn down Swarthmore is almost too dumb to answer.</p>

<p>Gibby is dead wrong on the quality of the people. There are more students at the Ivies, because they are bigger, and they tend to have more naked ambition, because that’s who the Ivies attract. Swarthmore has absolutely top-quality students who want a smaller college experience. Many of them are amazing.</p>

<p>Gibby is right to consider financial aid, if you are eligible for it. I believe Swarthmore has a better reputation for aid than any of the other LACs gibby mentioned, but it’s not likely to outbid Harvard or Yale on a regular basis. However, the child of a very close friend was accepted at Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Middlebury, and Swarthmore last year, and got the best financial aid offer from Swarthmore by a meaningful margin. So it can happen.</p>

<p>It sounds like you are talking about applying ED, so you would not be able to compare offers before accepting Swarthmore. Nevertheless, if when Swarthmore accepts you it presents a financial aid offer your family doesn’t feel it can live with, you can decline the ED acceptance and apply RD anywhere you want.</p>

<p>I am pretty familiar with education both at HYS and at Swarthmore. Swarthmore is different, but not necessarily worse by any stretch of the imagination. Wherever you go, your most important educational experience will come from two or three teachers in your major department. At the Ivies, you will have a broad range of people to choose from, but whether or not they are any good as teachers will be a little random. Chances are, you will seek out the best teachers and focus your education on what they are teaching. At Swarthmore, your choices will be more limited, but the quality range will be much tighter as far as teaching is concerned. No one gets tenure at Swarthmore without being a completely solid, great teacher.</p>

<p>Don’t assume, by the way, that your science education will be worse at Swarthmore than at Harvard. Swarthmore does a great job producing graduates who find places in tippy-top PhD and professional school programs. If you go with the flow there, you will be fine, and maybe even better than if you went to Harvard.</p>

<p>Also, Swarthmore is 20 minutes from Penn by train (and the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania, Children’s Hospital of Pennsylvania, the University City Science Center, the Wistar Institute, etc.). The train station is right on campus. If you want to work in a big lab while you are at Swarthmore, you can do that. If you want to go into the city to play, it’s considerably easier than at places like Princeton or Stanford.</p>

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<p>@csf Sorry for having beaten a dead horse. You seem to be very grounded and have a lot of common sense. Since, at this point it really seems that you can have your cake and eat it too if you go to Swarthmore (i.e. play golf and pursue your golfing dream while getting a superb education), that would be my recommendation. Even if you were to get into one of the other schools on your list, as Gibby pointed out, your chances of getting playing time if you managed to be a walk-on are pretty slim and I can see you being unhappy without a golf club in your hand while matches are being played. </p>

<p>Also, we have no idea what the rest of your profile looks like (EC’s recs,essays, etc). All we see is that you have scores in the middle of the other schools’ ranges and it takes that plus a perfect storm combination of the other factors to get into a place like Harvard or Stanford. Yes, there is more name recognition at these places but the education you will receive at Swarthmore and the job or graduate school opportunities will be roughly the same. I think you already know this but are seeking reassurance. Besides, if things work out golf- and grade-wise, you could always try to transfer but I suspect that you won’t want to if things are going so well for you. Lastly, there is always grad school if you are still hell bent on name recognition.</p>

<p>Edit: I was writing this before Gibby’s and JHS’s posts were written but I took a break for dinner and then sent it. Both of them make some excellent points. My two main points are: 1) Can you get into an HYPS type school without a golf hook? 2) If you did get into one would you be happy hanging up you clubs for four years? Again, it appears that going to Swarthmore gives you most of what you are looking for. Go help them win some matches while working on your game. You will be most happy going where you are doing what you love.</p>

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<p>@gibby @falcon1 @jhs these are exactly the answers i was looking for! I apologize for sounding somewhat angry in my previous reply.</p>

<p>This meaningful insight answers alot of my questions. Falcon1 hit it right on the button with his answer- i love the opportunity at swat but just wanted reassurance I wasn’t missing the opportunity of a lifetime or something by not applying to the Ivies. As falcon1 said, at swat I can have my cake and eat it too. I just wanted reassurance that the “ivy cake” wasn’t absolutely phenomenal compared to the “swat cake”. It seems from
These posts that in the end, the opportunities and quality of education even out between swat and ivies/stanford, and my admission to swat is much more secure. Seems like the logical option at this point. If anyone has anything to say that is opposed to the info presented, please do tell!</p>

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<p>Have you considered UCLA? Or are you set on a top 10 or whatever school?</p>

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<p>I go to Penn right now and actually if I could redo my whole college process, I wouldn’t focus so much on prestige. You have to focus your decision on what will make you happiest. </p>

<p>I know a few kids at Swarthmore and they’re brilliant. You’re going to receive a fantastic education at Swarthmore either way in addition to getting to work on something you love. You can’t go wrong there.</p>

<p>Good luck with your decision!</p>

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<p>Thanks for all the advice guys, truly appreciated it. I’ve made my decision and I’m gonna stick with Swat. No further advice or comments are needed, lol this thread has been taking up alot of my time(it’s been very informative to say the least, always looked forward to posts, but just not enough time to keep up with it!), and it would be great if this thread remained “dormant”(for lack of a better word) from now on. </p>

<p>Again, thanks alot guys!</p>

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<p>" And an Ivy League Degree is the most attractive Bachelor’s degree you can have, whether people like it or not."</p>

<p>I don’t find that to be true. Many people have no idea which colleges are in the Ivy League; schools such as MIT, Stanford, CalTech, and Williams are usually considered to be better than Brown, Penn, or Cornell; and if grad school is in your future, the grad school will matter more than the undergrad. Also, for purposes of grad school admission, you would be fine coming out of Swat or Harvard - perhaps slightly better from Swat, as you might have more opportunities for research. </p>

<p>My advice to any athlete is to use athletics to get a great education that you otherwise could not have gotten. Your stats are very good, but you’re not a lock for Swat, not by any stretch, without that golf recruitment. IMHO, you would be mental to turn that down.</p>

<p>While I do not know much about college recruiting, I will point out that it’s almost November. Yes, you could perhaps leverage this into a HYS acceptance, or you could end up losing it all - no Swat, no HYS, in the regular decision melee, not a recruit at any school, hanging onto an acceptance to WUSTL or UCLA - a fine school, but not Swat. This isn’t the question to be asking at this late date, IMHO.</p>

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<p>Keep in mind that a LOT of D3 athletes quit their sport some time during their 4 years. They don’t get any money for playing and quickly realize that not everyone is going to sports stuff like in high school. Pick a school that you want to be at without the sport. You pooh pooh Cornell, Brown, Dartmouth, etc., but your scores and grades are more in line with those schools…</p>

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<p>Our company is in the business of golf. Our club professionals are all very accomplished players, with the VP of Operations missing his PGA Tour Card by 1 stroke prior to being injured and retiring from competitve golf.</p>

<p>Playing golf for money (real money) is more difficult than playing major league baseball…at any time there are about 1,000 guys on the MLB rosters (from the Yankees down to the Astros)…the PGA Tour has 125 fully exempt players plus cross-overs from other tour sand selected invitees, so at best 250-300 players can compete on the PGA Tour…and the same amount to the European PGA Tour and you get 600, 40% less than in MLB.</p>

<p>Oh, by the way, the minimum salary earned by any player in MLB is $490,000. On either the PGA or European PGA Tour, there is no minimum salary; you earn what you win (outside of endorsement deals - rule of thumb - endorsement money = tour earnings, so if you earn $500,000 in winnings you’ll average $500,000 in endorsements). </p>

<p>PS: Minimum earnings to keep your PGA card in 2013 was about $600,000. If you didn’t earn that much, there is a process to re-earn your PGA Touring Card.</p>

<p>Your degree at Swarthmore or HYPSM etc. is like a minimum salary guarantee in MLB…if youre really intrested in the golf business and want to play, look to attend one of the warmer weather schools where you could major in golf course amangement or follow the route to become a PGA Teaching or Club Professional.</p>

<p>Best of luck.</p>

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<p>The odds of becoming a professional golfer beyond the club pro level are so poor that basing your decision on your development as a golfer seems really short-sighted. That being said, Swarthmore is a fantastic college and if you really like it there, go there. The idea that you will be missing out by not attending an Ivy is not correct. Most kids who go to college love their experience and would not trade it for another. There are very few spots at the Ivies, so obviously people come out happy and have great lives without going to one of those schools.</p>

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<p>If you are interested in going into a science-related field, depending on what discipline I think Stanford or MIT might be a better consideration than most Ivies.</p>

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<p>Your SATs may be good enough for Harvard, but so are a zillion other applicants.<br>
Why would they want to choose you? </p>

<p>At Swarthmore, your SATs are good enough + you have that hook of “golf”.<br>
Why would they want to choose you? Because you are academically prepared and you can help their golf team.</p>

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<p>There is absolutely no doubt that you should pick a sure acceptance at Swat, one of the best undergraduate schools in the country, and well known to every graduate department there is, over a tiny chance of acceptance at Harvard or any other Ivy. Note that plenty of kids with stats like yours (or better) are rejected or wait-listed at Swat every year.</p>

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<p>As someone who watches golf, played golf before he broke his wrist, and knows golf inside and out… I can definitely say you’re correct about how good Stanford’s team is.</p>

<p>I think you should go to Swarthmore, if you like it.
What’s the harm? If you end up playing pro golf, you won’t be "what if"ing yourself… And you may not get the chance to play, much less to play pro golf, if you go to another school.
I’d go to Swarthmore if I was in your shoes.</p>

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<p>Swarthmore in my opinion is one of the jewels in the crown of the USA’s historically important colleges. So many outstanding graduates. One of our sons was admitted and did not attend. He attended college on a merit aid scholarship. If you go to Swat, embrace it and contribute to it to your best ability. It’s a gift that will keep on giving in your life. The whole college is intimate but has gravitas and reach. Love the campus and love the location. Making Ivies or Swarthmore shine requires total heart and personal commitment. Why not embrace this opportunity and run with it?</p>

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<p>Swarthmore is probably harder than the ivies in terms of academics; from what I hear, it’s classes are on a short list as one of the toughest in the country. That is something to consider, particularly if you plan to spend a significant chunk of your time practicing golf.</p>

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<p>OP already said he made his decision to attend Swarthmore so I think people can stop encouraging him to go there. The moderator should probably lock this thread.</p>