Swarthmore or UPenn for Graduate School Admissions

Colleges and Universities A-Z Swarthmore College
21

<p>"Some students get an outstanding education, but for the most part they go there because it's Harvard."</p>

<p>Idad: I have often found your comments very interesting and helpful (particularly last year, when my son was trying to decide between Swarthmore, Amherst, and Harvard, where he ultimately decided to go), but occasionally, as here, I think that your obvious biases in favor of LACs get the better of you. </p>

<p>While I am sure that Harvard doesn't need me (or anyone else) to defend it, I can assure you that my son, and many other undergraduate students that I know there, are indeed receiving an "outstanding education" - both inside and outside the classroom - and did not just "go there because it's Harvard." Just yesterday, for instance, my son called me and mentioned the sort of dilemma that seems to be quite commonplace there: whether to go and hear an on-campus talk being given in the afternoon by the head of the International Monetary Fund, or instead to go and hear a talk being given later in the day by a renowned scholar on the relationship between ethics and religion - or both. </p>

<p>Ultimately, I think that this sort of cliched Harvard-bashing tends to undermine, not strengthen, whatever case you may be trying to make for Swarthmore (an institution that, by the way, I continue to have great respect for).</p>

22

<p>Interesteddad: You might find the list of Harvard freshman seminars enlightening. <a href="http://www.fas.harvard.edu/%7Eseminars/courses.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~seminars/courses.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I'd give a little more credence to things like this (along with continued focus on undergraduate education, from integrating the introductory science courses, to the curricular review), than third-hand Summers quotes. I've had multiple professors this semester and last beg students to come to their office hours. And last semester I had a number of conversations with Provost (and former director of NIMH) Steven Hyman, who taught a class of about 25 that I was in.</p>

23

<p>ephistrophy and just forget me:</p>

<p>It is absolutely possible to get a fine education at research universities. You will never hear me have anything but the utmost praise for the outside the classroom activities at Harvard.</p>

<p>But, lets talk turkey. </p>

<p>1) What have your (or son's) class sizes been like? We know they get a freshman seminar, but what about the core courses? What about the intro courses? I understand Harvard's largest class this year had 700 students.</p>

<p>2) Am I mistaken that it is common for students to simply not go to these lecture classes and use the reading period to catch up on the lecture notes?</p>

<p>3) What's up with professors "begging" students to meet with them?</p>

24

<p>Interesteddad:</p>

<p>In response to your questions:</p>

<p>--Re class size, my sense is that it varies widely at Harvard. Last semester, my son took four classes: two were very small (less than 20), the other two were very large (and included discussion sections with TAs). One of the two very large classes was Justice (or Moral Reasoning), taught by Michael Sandel, which my son found to be one of the most exciting and satisfying educational experiences that he's ever had. If you're interested, more on this class can be found here: <a href="http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/01.09/03-sandel.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/01.09/03-sandel.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p>--Re class attendance, etc., I obviously can't speak for everyone, but judging from the experiences of my son, his roommates, and other Harvard students that I know about, no, it is not at all "common" for Harvard kids simply not to attend lecture classes, then try to catch up at the end of the semester. Nor would I expect it to be. You're not likely to get into a school like Harvard - or Swarthmore - by doing just the bare minimum to get by. Nor are you likely to wind up at one of these schools unless you have some degree of genuine intellectual passion.</p>

<p>A couple of other points: </p>

<p>--I believe that it is a mistake to equate class size with class quality. Large classes, like Justice at Harvard, can offer extremely rich educational experiences (and you're not likely to be shut out of them); small classes can be deadly dull. What ultimately counts is not size but quality. </p>

<p>--You refer to the "outside the classroom activities at Harvard" as if they're somehow only an incidental part of the overall educational experience. Not so, at least in my son's experience. For example, he's now a staff writer for Harvard's daily newspaper, the Crimson, and the opportunity to write regularly on a wide array of topics for publication in such a high-quality college newspaper has been an education in itself. And the quantity, and quality, of speakers, panel discussions, debates, etc., at Harvard is truly staggering. For example, my son happened to call again today (I don't know if I'd ever talk to him if he didn't have a cell phone, but with one I seem to hear from him more frequently than I might have anticipated) and was just bubbling over with excitement - there's no other way to describe it - about the talk that he heard yesterday on global economic imbalances, etc., by the Director of the International Monetary Fund. </p>

<p>I have no interest in trying to make the case that Harvard is in some objective sense "better" than Swarthmore. I don't believe that it is. I believe that it is different.</p>

25

<p>
[quote]
You refer to the "outside the classroom activities at Harvard" as if they're somehow only an incidental part of the overall educational experience.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Not at all. You know that I am a huge fan of Harvard's extra-curricular activities. IMO, they are the crown jewels of Harvard's undergrad program and the best reason to choose Harvard.</p>

26

<p>Superior academics at Swarthmore, Penn, and Harvard. Superior extracurriculars at Penn and Harvard. Any of the three will get you into great grad and professional schools. </p>

<p>All great places with great resources, but Penn and Harvard students are probably much much happier at their schools than Swarthmore students are at theirs. Swarthmore is notorious for having stressed out students. It's the price they pay for that superintellectual atmosphere it's known for. That can't always be a pleasant thing, and it's talked about ALL the time. Just check the the Swarthmore Daily Jolt discussion forums, the Phoenix (the Swat student newspaper online), and several of the threads on this site for comments from current students and alums.</p>

27

<p>... <em>sighs</em></p>

<p>All the Swarthmore students that I know have taken classes at UPenn have preferred their Swat classes. If you are interested in classes over extracurriculars, choose Swat. </p>

<p>This thread isn't about the merits of Harvard.</p>

28

<p>"This thread isn't about the merits of Harvard."</p>

<p>I agree - which is why I was a bit puzzled when interesteddad interjected Harvard (apparently, a favorite target of LAC devotees) in the first place.</p>

29

<p>
[quote]
Harvard students are probably much much happier at their schools than Swarthmore students are at theirs...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Now, that is funny. Anyone close to Harvard knows that the Harvard students, as a whole, are world-class complainers! And, I mean that in the most positive way.</p>

<p>It's one reason that you have to take Harvard's consistently low rankings on the COFHE surveys with a grain of salt.</p>

30

<p>He was using a quote by the former Harvard president to elaborate on a point about UPenn. Check the thread.</p>

31

<p>Actually, I injected Larry Summers' quote about Swarthmore. I figured that he was in a position to be an expert witness about the nature of undergrad education at different types of schools. I think the president of the world's most prestigious research university suggesting that students should go to Amherst or Swarthmore if they want interaction with professors was on point to the current discussion. After all, Summers has spent much of his career as a professor at research universities.</p>

32

<p>Fine, if you thought it made sense to try to "sell" the virtues of Swarthmore by referring to this unconfirmed quote from Larry Summers - who, as he has repeatedly demonstrated in a variety of contexts, is often much more interested in being provocative than in being accurate - and then throw in, as a sort of by-the-way follow-up, the apparently well-known "fact" that most students choose to go to Harvard just "because it's Harvard," well, OK, have it your way . . . . I'll get out of your way and let y'all carry on your little chat here.</p>

33

<p>
[quote]
...most students choose to go to Harvard just "because it's Harvard,"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, it's true, isn't it? Nobody turns down Harvard. What's the yield? 85%? I don't think it's because of the fantastic student center.</p>

<p>It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the number of students, even here on College Confidential, who are drawn by the allure of "Ivy" prestige, even (in many cases) not even knowing much about the individual schools. Even the phrase "an Ivy" suggests a very superficial degree of research into colleges.</p>

34

<p>I don't believe Harvard students are that stupid. They go there for what Harvard offers, not just because of the name.</p>

<p>I doubt professors at any major research university would debate the assertion that there is more close faculty contact, from the start, at the LAC's than at the R1 universities. However, they might say that the greater range of options, the potential to delve far deeper into advanced topics, the larger number of majors, and the incomparably greater expertise of the faculty balance the less personal academic experience. This without referring at all to any extracurricular considerations.</p>

35

<p>Interesteddad:</p>

<p>Uh, I'm trying to get out of your way, but you keep pulling me back in. </p>

<p>Let's see: "Well, it's true, isn't it? Nobody turns down Harvard. What's the yield? 85%?" </p>

<p>Hmmmm . . . I guess the corollary of this startling logical leap must be that the schools with the lowest yields are the ones with the most knowledgeable and sophisticated "buyers."</p>

36

<p>kelly dear,
When you have a moment, would you please go back to post #4 in the "LibArts Vs. Ivy League" thread on the Swat forum. Thanks.</p>

37

<p>Afan and Epistrophy:</p>

<p>Whoa! Back the truck up. </p>

<p>I never said that I thought it was "stupid" to go to Harvard "because it's Harvard". I think it's perfectly rational and intelligent to go to Harvard because it is the most recognized brand-name and most prestigous school in the country. I have no problem whatsoever with that train of thought in the decision-making process.</p>

38

<p>OK, Interesteddad, I give up.</p>

<p>I've learned my lesson: Never try to make the last point in a conversation with someone who has 3,600+ posts.</p>

39

<p>I think the original question was UPenn vs Swarthmore. There is a very different feel to each campus. Both offer great educations. I doubt outcome for most students is different at one vs the other. In my humble opinion, just go where you feel most comfortable. I know students now in the same graduate school from both places, and they went where they felt best, and speak highly of both schools.</p>

<p>I have found that students from various undergraduate institutions had positive or negative experiences more based upon their own personalities, not the institutions. Really Penn vs Swarthmore for long-term predictions of success doesn't seem to make a difference. Same with Harvard. It must be a nice feeling to say "I went to Harvard" but it's really what you make of it, and that's more dependent on who you are. </p>

<p>Having gone to a large state university that is now called a "public Ivy" (we called it the school down the highway), I would not have traded my experience for any school, Ivy or LAC. My life would not have been improved by attending any of the bigger name or higher-ranked schools. So there!</p>

40

<p>Okay. About extracurriculars, how are they at Swarthmore?</p>

<p>Are they really that terrible compared to UPenn's? I know that being a much larger school UPenn has many more groups and activities, but what I'm afraid of there is that the competition to be involved in those extracurriculars will be extremely cut throat.</p>

<p>Would you say that Swarthmore, since it is smaller has more accessible extracurriculars and its easier for someone with little expertise to get involved with something?</p>

<p>Right now I think I'm at the point where I feel much more comfortable with Swarthmore (probably has to do with having visited), but UPenn seems much more exciting and fresh (probably has to do with not having visited). Maybe this will change after I go to visit Penn next week (but they've told me that they can't host me for an overnight, boo!).</p>