<p>Which one is looked upon more favorably?</p>
<p>I would guess it probably depends partially upon the field of study.</p>
<p>Swarthmore sends a much higher percentage of its grads to doctoral grad school programs, but I think either school would provide an good platform for post-grad studies.</p>
<p>It also depends on how much personal recommendations matter. For fields in which one letter from a well known researcher counts for a lot, there are far more of such people at Penn than at Swarthmore. Of course, Swarthmore grads are found in graduate schools all over the country, so they must be doing something right.</p>
<p>One other consideration. You might get a clearer idea of what graduate study, is like at a university that has a graduate program. I saw a paper once that reported departmental characteristics that predicted large proportions of undergrads going on to graduate school, and it varied by field. So in some fields large departments sent more people to graduate school, in other fields, small departments did so.</p>
<p>Swarthmore had the third highest percentage of its graduates getting a PhD degree in the United States -- behind only two tech schools, CalTech and Harvey Mudd. 21% of all Swat grads over the most recent ten year period have gotten a PhD or equivalent doctoral degree. Obviously, getting students into grad school programs is a particular specialty of Swarthmore.</p>
<p>Here are the top-50 "PhD factories" on a per grad basis:</p>
<hr>
<p>Academic field: ALL </p>
<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees: ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database<br>
Number of Undergraduates: ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database<br>
Percentage of graduates receiving a doctorate degree. </p>
<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period<br>
Note: Includes all NSF doctoral degrees inc. PhD, Divinity, etc., but not M.D. or Law. </p>
<p>1 California Institute of Technology 35.8%
2 Harvey Mudd College 24.7%
3 Swarthmore College 21.1%
4 Reed College 19.9%
5 Massachusetts Institute of Technology 18.3%
6 Carleton College 16.8%
7 Bryn Mawr College 15.8%
8 Oberlin College 15.7%
9 University of Chicago 15.3%
10 Yale University 14.5%
11 Princeton University 14.3%
12 Harvard University 14.3%
13 Grinnell College 14.1%
14 Haverford College 13.8%
15 Pomona College 13.8%
16 Rice University 13.1%
17 Williams College 12.7%
18 Amherst College 12.4%
19 Stanford University 11.4%
20 Kalamazoo College 11.3%
21 Wesleyan University 11.0%
22 St John's College (both campus) 10.6%
23 Brown University 10.6%
24 Wellesley College 10.4%
25 Earlham College 10.0%
26 Beloit College 9.6%
27 Lawrence University 9.5%
28 Macalester College 9.3%
29 Cornell University, All Campuses 9.0%
30 Bowdoin College 9.0%
31 Mount Holyoke College 8.9%
32 Smith College 8.9%
33 Vassar College 8.8%
34 Case Western Reserve University 8.7%
35 Johns Hopkins University 8.7%
36 St Olaf College 8.7%
37 Hendrix College 8.7%
38 Hampshire College 8.6%
39 Trinity University 8.5%
40 Knox College 8.5%
41 Duke University 8.5%
42 Occidental College 8.4%
43 University of Rochester 8.3%
44 College of Wooster 8.3%
45 Barnard College 8.3%
46 Bennington College 8.2%
47 Columbia University in the City of New York 8.1%
48 Whitman College 8.0%
49 University of California-Berkeley 7.9%
50 College of William and Mary 7.9%</p>
<p>Here's the second 50:</p>
<p>51 Carnegie Mellon University 7.8%
52 New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology 7.8%
53 Brandeis University 7.7%
54 Dartmouth College 7.6%
55 Wabash College 7.5%
56 Bates College 7.5%
57 Davidson College 7.5%
58 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute 7.2%
59 Franklin and Marshall College 7.2%
60 Fisk University 7.1%
61 Wheaton College (Wheaton, IL) 7.1%
62 University of California-San Francisco 6.8%
63 Allegheny College 6.8%
64 Furman University 6.6%
65 University of Pennsylvania 6.5%
66 Washington University 6.5%
67 Bard College 6.5%
68 Northwestern Univ 6.4%
69 Rhodes College 6.4%
70 Agnes Scott College 6.3%
71 Spelman College 6.3%
72 Antioch University, All Campuses 6.2%
73 Kenyon College 6.2%
74 University of Dallas 6.2%
75 Ripon College 6.1%
76 Colorado College 6.1%
77 Bethel College (North Newton, KS) 6.1%
78 Hamilton College 6.0%
79 Goshen College 6.0%
80 Middlebury College 6.0%
81 Erskine College 6.0%
82 University of the South 5.9%
83 University of Michigan at Ann Arbor 5.8%
84 Drew University 5.8%
85 Wake Forest University 5.8%
86 Tougaloo College 5.8%
87 Goucher College 5.8%
88 Chatham College 5.7%
89 Cooper Union 5.7%
90 Alfred University, Main Campus 5.7%
91 Tufts University 5.7%
92 University of California-Santa Cruz 5.6%
93 Colgate University 5.6%
94 Colby College 5.5%
95 Bucknell University 5.4%
96 Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology 5.4%
97 Concordia Teachers College 5.4%
98 University of Virginia, Main Campus 5.4%
99 Sarah Lawrence College 5.3%
100 Southwestern University 5.3%</p>
<p>in general, upenn v. swarthmore for undergraduates?</p>
<p>Yes. How about in general Swarthmore vs UPenn for undergraduate classes. I don't want to know so much about classes as about life outside of classes.</p>
<p>I'm really having trouble deciding if I want a LAC or a research university.</p>
<p>Any Swarthmore students out there who had a similar choice? How did you make your decision?</p>
<p>I'd hazard to say that the majority of kids who go to these top schools are not looking to get PhDs. Most who go on to grad school are looking at top law, business, and medical schools. A very small percentage go on to get PhDs. When you look at numbers going to top pre-professional schools (law, med, b-schools), the list is quite different...</p>
<p>Just have a look at the Wall Street Journal "Feeder" list.</p>
<p>PhatAlbert,</p>
<p>since those two schools are so close geographically, and you want to know as much about classes as about life outside of classes, I think it would help A LOT if you could spend a night and talk to students at each one. They are VERY different schools.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'd hazard to say that the majority of kids who go to these top schools are not looking to get PhDs.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's actually not true. At most of the top colleges, it's common to see double-digit grads getting PhDs, double-digit grads getting MDs, and double-digit grads getting law degrees. That's certainly been the case at Swarthmore for a very long time (it is a HUGE med school feeder) and, it is the case at many of the schools I've looked at. The category that tends to vary the most from school to school is MBA degrees. The heavy pre-professional schools (like a Northwestern or a Dartmouth) send higher percentages that direction. The more academically-oriented schools (like a Swarthmore or an MIT or a UChicago) send fewer, although still probably double-digit percentages if you look far enough down the road after graduation. That's also the one that is nearly impossible to track accurately because MBAs are almost always gotten following several years or more of work experience.</p>
<p>As for UPenn undergrad versus Swarthmore, I don't think that's even close. Among the members of the Ivy League football conference, Penn is generally regarded as the least focused on undergrad education. Not for nuttin', but it has as many undergrads as many state universities, which means larger class sizes, TA instructors, etc. In a lot of ways, the choice between Penn and Swarthmore is kind of a weird one to start with. It would make more sense to be choosing between, say, Penn and UVa or UNC-CH or maybe Cornell, which is also quite large.</p>
<p>For all his flaws, Larry Summers at Harvard had it right when he told two Harvard undergrads, "look, if you had wanted to interact with your professors, you should have gone to Swarthmore or Amherst..." It's just the nature of the beast at research universities. They spell it out for the faculty with the criteria for getting tenure. First is research. Second is teaching grad students, because they do the grunt work for your research. Third, (if you have any time left over), is teaching undergrads. If your boss tells you that's what you have to do to keep your job, you are going to do it. There is not a professor in the country who will disagree that those are the priorities at a research university. I'll never forget the day my college professor brother sat my daughter and I down...before her college search ever began....and laid out the facts about R1 and P1 research universities.</p>
<p>So, the choice is not really undergrad teaching. There isn't a research university in the country that can touch Swarthmore on that. Even the President of Harvard knows that. The choice has to be whether you place higher priority on an interactive undergrad classroom experience or on the things that research universities have to offer -- bigger brand-name (among the general population), more class choices, incredible depth if you are into some off-the-beaten track specialty, etc. </p>
<p>It's actually very easy to lay out the parameters of the choice. It's making the decision that is sometimes not. In other cases, it's easy. For example, my daughter had spent enough time involved in stuff at one of the top research universities in the Boston area to know that she wanted the focus on undergrad teaching at a place like Swarthmore if she could get in. She's save the research university for grad school.</p>
<p>Thanks interesteddad for the responses. I'm sorry if I'm asking a hard question that probably is almost impossible for others to answer since the answer is inside of me.</p>
<p>But, did Summers actually say that? Can you provide a link to it, I'd like to read more about that because it is quite hilarious to me.</p>
<p>"look, if you had wanted to interact with your professors, you should have gone to Swarthmore or Amherst..."</p>
<p>Professors at research universities around the country say the same thing, it is not just a Harvard attitude. On the other hand, that handful of small seminars that you get to in junior and senior years can be with world famous scholars and studying cutting edge work- something the LAC's can rarely offer.</p>
<p>I assume Swarthmore vs Penn was the choice available. </p>
<p>Other points: Swarthmore is almost assured to be more work, unless perhaps you major in engineering. Penn offers a far more varied social life, and is in the middle of the city, bright lights, lots going on. Swarthmore is in a sleepy suburb, a short train ride from the city, but you have to take a commuter train, then get where you are going. Since it is a commuter train, it does not run on a college student (all night long) schedule. Penn has D1 sports and enough extracurriculars to keep you from ever getting to class. It has students aiming for everything from Swarthmore-like study all the time and go to grad school, to prepping for professional school or straight into the work force. In other words, a far more varied set of experiences.</p>
<p>You can get an education that will set you up for grad school either place, but Swarthmore students are far more likely to go on to doctoral degrees.</p>
<p>I think Swarthmore will provide a better undergraduate education, and will certainly do a great job of getting you into graduate school. Then you can attend a research university like Upenn for grad school. You will then be able to enjoy all the benefits (famous scholar professors and such) as a grad student, when they are more accessible to you anyways. Then, if you get your graduate degree at a brand-name research university, you will have gotten the best of both worlds and the prestige, if that's what you're worried about.</p>
1 Like
<p>
[quote]
Since it is a commuter train, it does not run on a college student (all night long) schedule.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, my daughter tells me that they don't take the train into Philly at night. Swarthmore runs a shuttle bus on Friday and Saturday nights that makes three or four stops at various destinations in downtown Philly. I can't remember where exactly -- around the arts/symphony district, South Street, and a couple more places. The shuttle runs late into the night, so there's no worry about catching the last train.</p>
<p>"Penn has D1 sports and enough extracurriculars to keep you from ever getting to class."</p>
<p>If this sounds appealing to you, don't go to Swarthmore.</p>
<p>Phat:</p>
<p>Yes. Summers is reported to have said it. It was in a December 2004 Boston Globe review of a book on Larry Summers by former George Magazine editor Richard Bradley. Here's the quote from the Globe article:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Here is my favorite (indirect) quote, reported to Bradley by a student who met with Summers during office hours. The student told Summers "he was disappointed by how little contact he'd had with most of his professors." In reply, Summers "basically said that at Harvard, we choose to go only for the best scholars, and that if you wanted somewhere that focused on undergraduate teaching, you should go to a place like Amherst or Swarthmore." High school seniors, direct your applications accordingly.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This would not be any great surprise to many Harvard students. They know that the school isn't really focused on undergrad teaching or undergrad quality of life. Some students get an outstanding education, but for the most part they go there because it's Harvard.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If this sounds appealing to you, don't go to Swarthmore.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Amen. </p>
<p>I'm sure there are a few geniuses here and there who can pull it off. But, I think trying to get through Swarthmore without going to classes would be a very risky strategy for the mere mortals on campus. Plus, it's a waste of money. The whole idea is that classes are (kind of) fun...or at least stimulating. I know it sounds like a weird concept for a college, but... </p>
<p>I don't mean that students sit around singing Kumbaya in class or that the sound of the alarm clock isn't just as painful at Swarthmore as any other school. But, when I listen to my daughter and her friends, you can just tell that the classes are memorable. I've even heard them do stand-up comedy style impersonations of some of the "characters" in their classes. In fact, when I hear them complain, it's because a professor doesn't live up to the high expectations. Those are the classes that fall on the "OK" portion of her scale. The other end of the scale is "I really love that class."</p>
<p>It sounds like our original poster wasn't sure about the university vs. LAC thing, so I'd like to offer my thoughts. In terms of educational quality, the major pluses of a LAC versus a research university are much smaller class sizes, the absence of graduate students competing for professor attention, and a hiring and promotion process for faculty that gives more weight to research relative to teaching. All of this translates into much, much more personal attention from the faculty, which is invaluable.</p>
<p>The big thing you lose going to an LAC, educationwise, is the opportunity to work with faculty who are truly at the top of their field. If you look on the Penn website, you'll see that there's a long list of prestigious awards and distinctions their faculty have received - they have 35 members of the National Academy of Sciences, seven MacArthur grantees, five Pulitzer Prize winners, and so forth. I don't think any Swarthmore faculty have won such awards: if they did, they would quickly be hired away by universities offering to double their salaries.</p>
<p>I don't think this makes much of a difference, because from the perspective of the undergraduate the top researchers aren't worth much. They're given particularly light teaching loads and are most interested in focusing on their graduate students and their research. Even if they are interested in undergraduates, undergraduate education is about the foundations of a field, not the cutting edge; a Nobel Prize winner is unlikely to be better at presenting Intermediate Microeconomics than a professor who's been hired and promoted based on both teaching and scholarly ability.</p>
<p>But classes and non-classroom research aside, there are other factors to consider that are more a matter of personal preference. An LAC is a smaller community, so there are fewer student groups, fewer people to meet, and fewer things going on on campus at any given time. The external environments are also different - Penn, for example, is in the middle of a city, while Swarthmore is in a suburb with no college town to speak of. From the perspective of the college student, the Ville has a pizza place, a Chinese place, and that's about it. You can get to Philly by commuter rail that takes 20-30 minutes, depending on where you're going, and there's a mall within walking distance, but there's a big difference between that and living in the city.</p>
<p>And, of course, there's culture to consider. Swarthmore's reputation as a very liberal, extremely intellectual type of place draws very liberal, extremely intellectual students. I'm not sure what type of student Penn draws, but it's surely a very different culture from Swat.</p>
<p>As for graduate school admissions, the Swarthmore name is exceeded by none except maybe (and I mean maybe) HYPSM.</p>