<p>Hi, I am a rising (international) senior tore between applying ED to Upenn or Swarthmore. </p>
<p>I am very math & sci orientated. I plan to pursue biochemistry (NOT to prepare for med school). Ultimately, I want to become a science professor. Both of these schools seem to have what I seek:
rigorous academics, undergraduate research opportunities....</p>
<p>i really don't know what to do...!! </p>
<p>Could you tell me the differences between the two?</p>
<p>U Penn is so ghetto so i wouldnt recommend it.</p>
<p>^^ I wouldn't call Penn the "ghetto" by any stretch of the imagination, but those unaccustomed to the urban experience might feel less comfortable there.</p>
<p>Some observations:</p>
<p>You can walk to center city Philadelphia from Penn's campus. Swarthmore is in a suburb of Philly and Philly is accessible by train.</p>
<p>Swat is small; Penn is large.</p>
<p>Swat's campus is unspeakably beautiful and very green. Penn's campus is cutesy urban. That's the best way I can describe Penn.</p>
<p>Swat historically sends a higher percentage of students on to PhD programs than Penn, so I think if you went to Swat you would find a lot of students who share your professional goals, while at Penn you would cross paths with a lot of future business leaders and others. You would of course find some future business leaders at Swat and future professors at Penn, but the "vibe" and "emphasis" is different.</p>
<p>As far as research opps go, try contacting individual departments to see if you can talk to undergraduate students working there and ask them how they got their positions. See if each school encourages independent research or if research is synonymous with test tube cleaning. I anticipate that Swarthmore will have better opportunities for undergrads, but without further research on your own part, I can't say anything definitive.</p>
<p>Given your goals I'd say Swarthmore. It's one of the most thoroughly intellectual places I've ever seen, top-notch academics, lots of personal attention from professors. It's small but in many ways that's good. The curriculum is extraordinarily rich for the size of the school, and anything they don't have you can take at Penn.</p>
<p>It shocks me that anyone would be struggling with deciding between these two schools, they could not be more different. The only thing they have in common is location and me thinks you need to do your homework.</p>
<p>Penn is an anti intellectual school known for it's parties, Swarthmore a small LAC that prides itself on it's serious intellectual bent. Few people would be happy at both!</p>
<p>Dude, why is everyone so hell-bent on applying to a school ED? Sure, it shows that extra level of commitment, but you're obviously not committed at this point! I wouldn't worry about it. Certainly you should ruminate on the differences between the two schools, as they are very different, but you don't need to be 'torn betweeing applying ED' to one or the other. I would only apply ED once you've made up your mind and are positive.</p>
<p>That said, unlike hmom5, I am not quite as shocked by your struggle. I strongly considered applying to both schools (I ended up applying to neither). I don't think I can add much to what other people have said. I'll just say that Swarthmore is tiny and has a lovely campus; Penn has a bustling campus but seemed too career- (and drinking-)oriented for my tastes. I liked Swarthmore a lot more before I visited campus (in fact, my visit is what convinced me not to apply); I was barely considering Penn before I visited.</p>
<p>What confuses me is how someone interested in biochemistry would choose a small LAC over Penn...
Penn's biochem kicks Swat over the hill and beyond.</p>
<p>Penn is anti-intellectual? LMAO. Wharton = 20% of the university. Over 50% of the student body is in the College which is VERY intellectual.</p>
<p>I went to Wharton, no student there would call it, or Penn as a whole, intellectual. Smart kids? Of course. But not the self selected, philosophy reading, world peace seeking smart kids Swat attracts. And trust me, the two groups do not see the world the same way. I stand by my statements, these two schools will not be on anyone's list who has done their homework!</p>
<p>Just because Penn has a strong pre-professional contingent does not mean the school is "anti-intellectual" (a particularly weasely turn of phrase that implies it is not merely agnostic to thought but hostile to it like some sort of Cultural Revolution internship-seeking machine).</p>
<p>With 10,000 undergrads at Penn, there would STILL be more intellectual-types at Penn than Swarthmore, even if only 1/6 of the student body were intellectual--and it is definitely more than 1/6. I'm sorry but i just have to disagree with hmom5.</p>
<p>well, I AGREE with hmom5 - and think since she was a student there, her opinion carries more weight, IMO. </p>
<p>I've visited both - and the only thing the two campuses share is a common planting season. </p>
<p>It makes no sense for someone who is "torn" to commit to any school ED. Apply to both RD (as well as other schools) and see what your choices are come April.</p>
<p>I can only speak about Swarthmore, since my S is a recent graduate. He also looked at Penn but did not like it because of it's urban location. He is currently pursuing a Ph.D. at a top notch graduate school (not in biochem)and also hopes to teach on the university level. As one previous poster has mentioned, Swarthmore has an unusually large percentage of students who go on to earn Ph.D.'s. They have an unusual Honors program where you take a total of four small seminars during your junior and senior years. At the end of the senior year you present your work from these seminars to professors (experts in the field) who are brought in from universities around the country to administer the Honors exams. Swarthmore has an excellent Bio dept., and I believe there are numerous research opportunities. You can read more about the Honors program and the Bio department in general on the web site. Swarthmore</a> College :: Biology :: At Swarthmore College, learning about biology is doing biology.</p>
<p>hmom5- Obviously you didn't get out of the Wharton Womb while you were at Penn.
My son is very intellectual, is NOT in Wharton and is not fighting for world peace, either. His freshman year he also had a huge concern that he had chosen the wrong college because he wasn't getting the "intellectual fix" he needed. He did some rearranging and found everything he needed AT PENN.</p>
<p>I think it is extremely inaccurate to state that a top ten university could possibly be anti-intellectual.</p>
<p>^ Indeed. Many of Penn's liberal arts departments are ranked in the top 10 or top 20 in the US, per the universally respected NRC rankings, and the Center for Measuring University Performance consistently ranks Penn in the highest tier of research universities in the country (along with Columbia, Harvard, MIT, and Stanford). Penn's Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology is one of the finest in the world, and has launched more archaeological expeditions than just about any other museum in existence. Penn's medical research complex receives the second highest amount of NIH research funding of any university in the US. Even that bastion of preprofessionalism, Wharton, has the largest, most published, and most cited business school faculty on the planet, and conducts an enormous amount of rigorous academic research that is highly regarded throughout the world. And these are just a few examples.</p>
<p>To call Penn "anti-intellectual" is, quite frankly, pretty silly.</p>
<p>Also, just because it doesn't have a nerdy vibe (which is fine if that is what you are looking for) doesn't mean there is no intellectualism. You should see some of the blogs the Penn kids have out there!</p>
<p>I also went to Penn, lefthand.</p>
<p>Thank you very much for all of your feedbacks. Currently, I am leaning toward Swarthmore for its tight-community and intimate student-faculty interaction and the honors program, but I will definitely look closer into Upenn.</p>
<p>I am curious--how is chem at Swarthmore? it seems to be a rather unpopular major: only 1.1% of the degrees were chem.... while over 10% were for bio...</p>
<p>
<p>To call Penn "anti-intellectual" is, quite frankly, pretty silly.
The sad part is that most of Penn's students will never take advantage of these wonderful resources because most of the student body are New England prep kids who are basically going to attend a couple of classes, party 3-4 nights a week and then head to Wall Street. You are viewing Penn from atop the Ivy Tower and a lot of what you say is irrelevant to the actual culture at Penn, Dartmouth, Duke, Princeton etc. etc.</p>
<p>If you don't believe me, just ask the professors at Penn to see how intellectually engaged the students are. Based on an elder sister who went there, half the students don't even show up for the large lecture classes, recitation sessions are almost always empty and she remarked that her Philosophy professor was COMPLETELY SHOCKED when she went up to him after lecture and asked if he wanted to have lunch with her and discuss some of the concepts he went over in class. It had been 5 years since someone wanted to stay after class to just talk about philosophy. And philosophy is SUPPOSED TO ATTRACT THE MOST INTELLECTUAL KIDS.</p>
<p>That said, Penn is an incredible school much like some of its peers because it provides a good balance between academics and social life and allows its grads the opportunities to make 100k+ upon exit. That's what 99% of college kids are looking for anyway. So in that regard, places like Penn, Duke and Dartmouth meet the student demand.</p>
<p>The actual quality of the education offered....well for the majority of the student body, WHO CARES? If you're noble enough to value intellectualism over money, then go to Swarthmore without a doubt. Better yet, go to Chicago or something. Have fun surviving in this job market while "unintellectual" History grads from Princeton and Duke are grabbing all of your jobs though.</p>
<p>Perhaps I did not articulate my point well. Certainly there are intellectual students at Penn and at every school. I meant to convey the overall tone or vibe if you will. The vibes at the 2 schools could not be more different in my opinion and I do believe anyone who spends time at the two schools will see they attract a very different type of student. I grew up in PA, in an area where many kids chose one or the other. I went to Penn and my brother to Swat. He and his peers averaged much more study time then did the average Penn student. He and his peers partied in a much quieter way when compared to the 7 night per week drunken events that attract many at Penn. His reunions are filled with PhD profs and researchers, mine with Wall Streeters and corporate lawyers. The two groups are smart and successful, just in different ways on average.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If you don't believe me, just ask the professors at Penn to see how intellectually engaged the students are. Based on an elder sister who went there, half the students don't even show up for the large lecture classes, recitation sessions are almost always empty and she remarked that her Philosophy professor was COMPLETELY SHOCKED when she went up to him after lecture and asked if he wanted to have lunch with her and discuss some of the concepts he went over in class.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Man I don't know what classes your elder sister took...did she just spend all 4 years doing intro-level mega lectures and requirement-fulfilling courses?</p>
<p>All I can say is that aside from those types of classes, my experience sharply differed..</p>
<p>One issue not raised is that, relating to the OP's goal of being a scientist is the fact that Penn depending on the science of choice, and the agressivenss of the OP, one can start getting access to real labs early. That entire area around Penn is becoming a science mecca with huge growth at HUP and the Science Center (not Penn). My D spent three HS summers working in a lab, ended up with a coauthored article in a journal prior to going on to college. Something to think about.</p>