My son ('21) is undecided on his intended major, with far-ranging interests, from political science to chemistry. He also hasn’t ruled out engineering.
It seems like engineering (which is an extremely popular major around here) is one of the only majors that requires planning from high school. I would say he is more interested in other things but has the aptitude to do engineering and is enjoying Physics C, so he doesn’t want to rule it out. My husband is an engineer and we live in the Bay Area, so it’s hard to escape the influence. Nor does he want to apply as an engineering major, as he just doesn’t know at this point and wants to explore fully.
He has perfect scores and grades throughout (in an honors/AP curriculum) and solid ECs and (I’m fairly sure) excellent recos. He’s a good writer/thinker so I think the essays should be interesting. Given all this, any suggestions? We are looking at LACs as they would allow exploration. Swarthmore and Haverford, in particular, might work. Brown sounds interesting. Of course, these are reaches. I know engineering is impacted at the UCs - has anyone actually heard of people switching INTO engineering? I assume there are dropouts, so maybe this isn’t as impossible as I’m thinking for an excellent student.
I’ve accepted that switching to engineering might require an extra year, or a 3 plus 2 program. Has anyone here actually done this? He prefers to stay in CA, which makes this more challenging. The NYC area and surrounding states (within four hours or so of NYC) and NC are also ok, as we have family there and he wants to be close to someone we know. Easy airport access is also important. Covid has definitely made us wary.
The Claremont colleges would be wonderful if it works out - another big reach. His sister goes to one of them and it’s been a great experience. He’s not applying to Harvey Mudd (and I agree) as he’s not the typical techie kid. I know they have a strong LAC requirement… However, 3+2 seems an uncommon choice even at Claremont - if you want engineering, you apply to Mudd.
This is kind of throwing a wrench in the college search as, otherwise, he is the kid who needs a LOT of flexibility to explore, and he thrives in an intellectual environment, which leads to LACs.
I’m hoping someone has feedback as it’s hard to find good information on this!
Engineering majors (and CS) tend to be “full” (and therefore harder to get into at initial frosh admission and after enrolling as an undeclared student) at larger more selective public flagship level universities, since these schools tend to have large numbers of interested students who are academically capable of handling the rigor of the major. This describes most of the UCs, as well as some of the CSUs like CPSLO and SJSU. It also describes many of the well known flagships or engineering flagships in other states (e.g. UIUC, NCSU, UT Austin, Texas A&M, Purdue, Washington, etc.).
Less selective schools (where most of the students are scared off by the rigor of engineering, e.g. less selective CSUs and similarly selective other schools, including some less selective state flagships), small schools (where the size of the school limits the number of possibly interested students, e.g. Caltech, Harvey Mudd, Swarthmore), and very wealthy schools (which can have departments maintain extra capacity, e.g. MIT, Stanford) are less likely to have this problem.
A separate issue with changing into engineering majors is that engineering majors tend to require starting sequenced prerequisites from the first semester to avoid delaying graduation, even if entry to the major is not limited by the major being “full”. It is best for him to follow the engineering major template for the first year (which should also cover prerequisites for majors like chemistry and physics), while using any “general education” schedule space for exploring other majors like political science.
Regarding 3+2 programs, it appears that it is very uncommon for frosh interested in them to eventually make the transfer to the “2” school, probably because:
A. Extra year of cost, uncertain financial aid, and scholarships at the “3” school do not continue.
B. May not be admitted to the “2” school.
C. The “2” school may not have the college environment that attracted the student to the “3” school which is often a small LAC.
For this reason, it is best for him to choose a college with the possible engineering majors (and where they can be changed into if he is not initially directly admitted). Attending a college without engineering majors (like the Claremont colleges other than Harvey Mudd) makes it unlikely that he will study an engineering major.
There is a great 4+1 program at Haverford–with his scores he’d probably get merit money. The final year is taken at U Pennsylvania. Haverford looks small on paper, but it’s part of a larger consortium allowing him to branch out. It’s closest sister school is Bryn Mawr. They share schedules, policies, culture, etc. Also in the grouping is Swarthmore (which has its own engineering program) and UPenn. Travel between campuses is mainly by bus. To UPenn there’s a commuter train into Philly, about a 20 minute ride and the cost is free. Haverford uniquely is also conscientiously low stress and would mean no weeder classes with 100s of students, as in many larger programs. 4+1 means he’d graduate with his class, an issue with 3+2 programs.
He might also want to consider the ABET-accredited engineering program at U Maine at Orono. They have a tuition-matching program. I think of this school as the cheaper UVM, a very popular school right now. UMO offers a pretty campus, amazing scenery and the resources of a large uni while also having smaller programs.
He might also look into–
Lafayette
Lehigh
Union in Schenectady
Swarthmore
These four schools are small and have engineering.
@Dustyfeathers Are you sure that means that Haverford gave the merit awards? It may be awards from National Merit or other outside scholarship. See the following link (3rd question.)
I’ve spent way too much time on this particular problem - I also have a son who’s leaning towards engineering, but still interested in exploring. University of Rochester popped up as one of the more flexible programs where one can explore and still major in engineering. It’s not a LAC, but also not too big and he’d probably get some merit money.
I think that line H2A is for school funds so if someone got a NMF award, it may not be there. Every school seems to put amounts on different lines. I tried to unwind my daughter’s school on the CDS and it was not easy because there were state merit awards, schools awards, athletic awards, outside awards…
The other unfortunate reality with being undecided on an engineering major early on is that engineering majors require a highly sequenced schedule of classes that build on each other, and at small schools may only be offered one semester a year. Even people who know they want to major in engineering from day 1 still often take an extra year to graduate.
I think a student who decided after their freshman year that they wanted to major in engineering would almost certainly require an extra year and could be looking at 1-2 extra years. That’s not inherently bad if your family can afford it and he’s diligent, but it does derail a lot of people’s plans for a four-year schedule.
And even more problematic is that if your son wants to leave the door open, the pragmatic thing to do would be to take at least some of the engineering requirements in his first year just in case, but that might crowd out his time to explore.
I think a 3/2 program at a liberal arts college or some place that doesn’t have a native engineering program is a decent bet - I went to an LAC and we did have a few later engineering converts - but he’d still have to take engineering requirements in his first year or so.
Another idea might be to plan for a major in physics with the aim of getting a master’s in engineering, if he decides later on he wants to be an engineer. Ideally, he could do this at a college that does have an engineering program so he can take some of those classes as electives.
There’s also the option of looking at places that have an engineering sciences major (like this one at Vanderbilt: https://engineering.vanderbilt.edu/ge/engineering-science/). He’d likely still have to wrap his mind around needing an MS to be a full engineer, but an engineering sciences major may be better preparation than a physics major (I honestly don’t know!) while still allowing him the flexibility to pursue other interests.
Question out of curiosity: What does “typical techie kid” mean to you? With tech booming these days, I’ve seen the kinds of kids who are interested in/study the field has rapidly diversified. However, on second thought, there IS some level of…personality/interest homogeneity?..among kids interested in tech. I asked originally because I’m kind of curious if he’s counting himself out too early - or, conversely, thinking that if Harvey Mudd would make him uncomfortable then an engineering program/department inside of a university, or the 2 part of a 3/2 program, might do the same thing. I’d imagine that HMC is more academic and less preprofessional than a lot of these places.
Explore schools that make it easier to transfer into engineering. Two that come to mind are big publics like Michigan State and Michigan. At State he would most likely get at least a half scholarship which basically makes it instate tuition but with perks like honor college with automatic research with a mentor . Both schools starting out lsa then transferring into a engineering is very doable. Michigan of course is a hard get for any student regardless of GPA /stats.
Most lsa kids do take most of their Gen Ed’s math /science with everyone so lsa and engineering together. Then he can explore whatever with his other credits and still maintain the path to engineering without losing a semester /year. Hope this makes sense to you.
@baymom1 I got into Brown this year, and your son should come into Brown! It’s PERFECT for students like me interested in multiple subjects, given the virtually no requirements of the Open Curriculum (except for 2 writing courses, offered in fields like Bio, not just English) and the ability to S/NC (Pass/Fail) any course: great for those electives you don’t want to risk a bad grade over! ~20% of Brown undergraduates double-concentrate in over 70 concentrations (majors,) and you can even create your own! Brown also offers an EXTREMELY STRONG financial aid program meeting your full demonstrated need WITHOUT loans under the Brown Promise: run the financial aid calculators at financialaid.brown.edu as you might be pleasantly surprised!
If after more research your son is sure that Brown is his first choice, I highly, highly recommend that he applies ED as long as ALL of the following is true:
Your son LOVES Brown and would 110% if admitted.
Your son's extremely confident that he can present a well thought out and crafted application by the early deadline of November 1st.
You and your family can afford Brown if admitted.
I was admitted to some of the other schools mentioned in previous comments (Vanderbilt, USC, UC Berkeley etc.) and can definitely answer any questions/why I chose Brown over them (although I applied as a pre-med student, not for engineering.)
This is great information! Thanks so much. I have spent countless hours researching but keep going in circles.
Someone had mentioned grad school. I’m pretty sure he’ll go to grad school of some sort or even do a doctorate like his dad lol
In that case, I’m wondering if he could just decide a major at the end of sophomore year, like physics or math, IF by then he decides on engineering, and then apply for grad school to become an engineer. That would solve a lot of issues, as 1) I don’t think he wants to start out as a full-on engineering major as he really is undecided, 2) I don’t think he would get into an engineering program directly as his ECs are unrelated, 3) It would avoid the awkward 3+2, 2-1-1-1-, etc… though haverford’s 4+1 sounds good if he knows early enough), 4) He seems to enjoy learning!, and 5) We don’t have to choose a school based on the engineering conundrum, since he might very well choose not to do it!
@juillet, you asked what I meant by not the typical techie kid. He doesn’t want anything to do with coding and doesn’t like computers, in general, and tends to get frustrated with them However, he gets VERY intrigued by physics and math concepts and has the aptitude for them. He likes building things. Also, aside from tutoring STEM (and other subjects), his main ECs are not totally STEM based- sorry to be vague lol. He did the science fair and techie competitions, etc. in middle school but not since then, aside from science bowl. He has a very strong interest in some of the humanities (not just as an interest but to the extinct he might major in it) and I think he would be happier around people with more well-rounded interests in undergrad,. Grad school is different, of course, as he’ll have to specialize by then.
I’ve noticed schools like Brown and Stanford with the huge endowments aren’t impacted, though the problem is getting in Brown would be perfect in many ways, except for the location, but he doesn’t want to apply anywhere ED.
There are great ideas in this thread. I think he would be willing to look at UCI, for instance.
Would USC work out? If he gets in, he has a shot at the NMF scholarship, so that is definitely on the list. And it’s in CA, which is the preference. I guess we are not ONLY looking at LACs, also because there aren’t that many in CA. He liked UPenn as much as Haverford and Swarthmore, though they are quite different
So just misconceptions. The Ecs don’t need to be engineering driven. My son’s were not. Unless chess team, track and peer to peer student math tutoring is? His main one was more business focused, having a tiny small side business that had to do with coins.
So he combined his interests with business and engineering to get to Industrial Engineering (think… Business engineering), many subsets to this field, many different directions you can go.
My son is not a tinker type and doesn’t love coding…His first internship was on the practice management team of a large company.
My point is engineering for some fields is not what people think it is. Exploring will turn up areas of interest that you had no idea was engineering.
Gradschoolkid 1 was a physics major/math minor at an LAC better known for humanities than STEM, and no engineering presence at all. It was a wonderful college experience: she took classes all over the place- history, literature, anthropology, French film, art history, etc., and developed a great group of friends. Did physics REUs every summer, and applied to both physics and applied physics/materials science PhDs. Accepted everywhere she applied and ended up choosing an applied physics/matsci program- in the School of Engineering.
She is really, really glad that she had that undergrad experience, both because she genuinely enjoyed and got a lot out of all those other classes, and because it gave her time to work out- through her classwork and the internships- where her professional interests lie.
We were really, really glad b/c she had a very happy college experience- and because she did so much growing into herself during that time. Really agree with @juillet & @Knowsstuff, especially their underlying point that as they follow their genuine interests they find their path.
Fwiw, the physics/similar + master’s route does work.
@baymom1 Unlike schools like Vanderbilt, UC Berkeley etc. that have separate schools of engineering, Brown’s just one huge college: even if you applied for English originally, you could choose to major in engineering or vice-versa (and you have until the end of your sophomore year to decide.)
USC does have an extremely strong engineering program (Viterbi School,) however, you have to apply directly to that school as a high-schooler–otherwise, you will have to undergo a competitive inter-school transfer application process (there might be a way to double major between the two schools, as there is at Vanderbilt, but this might not exist or be competitive.) I was a National Merit scholar as well and received a half-tuition merit scholarship from USC, but chose Brown over it due to the more student-friendly grading policies (ex: intro science courses at USC are curved based on other students’ performance, whereas this isn’t the case at Brown,) and Brown gives me more flexibility in changing my major if I ever wanted to, rather than being limited to a small subset of choices in the school I’m in.
Brown has a very high (90%+) graduate application acceptance rate, and is half the size of USC: something to keep in mind if your son wants smaller classes in electives (like languages, given that these are OPTIONAL and aren’t required, so are limited to 20 students) and at higher-level concentration courses. He can peruse the listing of courses here: cab.brown.edu
I totally understand his reluctance to apply ED, as I only applied ED (was deferred and accepted RD) b/c Brown had been my top choice for many years. I’m also from the PNW, so Brown’s climate and surrounding location (even though it’s very small by population, it’s the capital and largest city in the state, and is less than an hour from Boston and 4 from NYC) were very similar to where I lived. In that case, I highly, highly recommend he applies Early Action to any and every college that offers it on his list, both for the earlier decision and the fact that some schools (like Tulane) take it as a sign of demonstrated interest; and he should consider applying restrictive/single-choice early action if he’s interested in HYPS (although this limits the other schools you can apply to early, so check the admissions website!)
IIf your son has thoughts on becoming an Engineer, I would start with that as a goal. It is easier to transfer out o f engineering than into it.
Any math or science he takes for engineering will fulfill any requirements for other majors.
Also consider schools like Case Western Reserve University that have a Single-door admissions policy…once you are admitted you can moved to any major without having to"apply to the Engineering or Business schools. Obviously you need to be prepared for that major and take required courses of course.
Case was created from the merging of a LAC and a STEM college.
@Knowsstuff, Good to know… It’s interesting that you mention industrial engineering, because that is one area I had brought up to him because I feel it would suit his personality. We have two close friends who work as IEs.
Around here, pretty much every male we know plans to do CS or ME, so the engineering ECs are rampant, but my kid hasn’t shown interest. I’m not sure he could compete for an engineering program coming from our school/city, which is populated with kids of engineers who work in Silicon Valley, but maybe I’m wrong? @collegemom3717, it’s nice to hear a positive story. That actually makes me feel like he can do a masters or phd, instead of trying to decide in freshman year when he’s not ready.
@PikachuRocks15, you’ve sold me on Brown lol Actually he really liked the session. Had it been closer, I think he would have done ED. He does plan to apply.
Yes, I am curious to know how hard it is to switch at USC. That would make it very unpredictable, But they do encourage double majors, so I think they like kids who have varied interests. It’s definitely not as flexible as Brown!
However, he gets VERY intrigued by physics and math concepts and has the aptitude for them. He likes building things. Also, aside from tutoring STEM (and other subjects), his main ECs are not totally STEM based- sorry to be vague lol. He did the science fair and techie competitions, etc. in middle school but not since then, aside from science bowl. He has a very strong interest in some of the humanities (not just as an interest but to the extinct he might major in it) and I think he would be happier around people with more well-rounded interests in undergrad,. Grad school is different, of course, as he’ll have to specialize by then.