Punishment is doled out for several reasons - so that those who participate do feel consequences for their actions but also to deter others from such behavior and to also send the message to all parties - including those of groups that were wronged by the video that the university administration has their back and will do their best to ensure ta welcoming community for all students. So, no, facing those students they insulted doesn’t seem like a suitable “punishment”. It’s not up to AA, Jewish students and others to mete out punishment here. It’s not the wild, wild west.
I didn’t mean that AA or Jewish students or whoever should mete out punishment. I meant that the culprits should live with the consequences of their action, unless they choose to withdraw or transfer. If other students choose not to be in study groups with them or not to invite them to parties, those are natural consequences of actions that offend other people and perhaps these students will learn from those interactions. If someone makes an offensive comment at a business meeting, should they lose their job? Not necessarily and if they don’t, they will either learn how to make amends or they will find a new job or they will have a lonely existence. I think shutting down the frat involved and banning those students from joining others shows that the school has the backs of the other students. I just don’t think that expelling them is necessarily a deterrent - if it was, we wouldn’t be seeing so many similar incidents on campuses all over the country.
" I just don’t think that expelling them is necessarily a deterrent - if it was, we wouldn’t be seeing so many similar incidents on campuses all over the country."
But is the penalty ever harsher than shutting down the frat in question? Not that I’ve seen. I think shutting down the fraternity is something that isn’t much of a deterrent - that plus these students being too stupid to think they’ll get caught and outed.
Another Theta Tau video found by The Daily Orange: http://dailyorange.com/2018/04/second-theta-tau-video-shows-mimed-sexual-assault-person-disabilities/
Looks like the Theta Tau chapter has been expelled: http://dailyorange.com/2018/04/transcript-su-chancellor-kent-syverud-elaborates-theta-tau-investigation/
@websensation As someone that has had to be the direct recipient of racist rants by random frat bros, I encourage you to think through why forcing innocent black people to endure a barrage of racial slurs is not a good punishment for white frat boys…
@techmom99 If you called someone a n----r at your place of business do you think you’d still be employed?
Regardless, I find it funny how this thread is filled with people attempting to tell minorities what they should and shouldn’t be offended about…then again that appears to be a running theme in these threads here.
This stuff is happening around the country, and for every story you hear about, there are 15 that you don’t…trust me…
I swear if some of you all knew the things that were going around on these campuses…you’d be disgusted. In fact, part of me feels like the only reason some of you are in denial about the issue is that you can’t fathom that your sons that you raised to “love everyone” and “respect different cultures” (despite possibly never actually interacting with those cultures) may be out there doing something similar. Just as an FYI…it’s more likely than you think.
If I ever used a word like that at work, I would certainly expect not to be employed at my company anymore, but I am an adult of more 50 years of age and experience and not a kid whose brain is still developing. I said not necessarily because there are gradations in “offensive language.” As a woman, it would be offensive to me to be called “sweetie” by a man 20 years younger than me, but I wouldn’t expect or want him to lose his job unless he was a repeat offender incapable of rehabilitation. As a Jew, I would be offended if someone called me the “k” word but again I don’t know that they should lose their job over it. The “N” word is in a completely different category. It is offensive *(or should be) to every American and person of good conscience, not just African-Americans. However, I don’t know that expelling these students over it is going to help them learn not to use these words in future or if it will just make them have more hatred for AA’s, Jews and other groups they don’t like.
Our difference isn’t in the reaction to the disgusting nature of what that video depicted. I agree that it’s horrific and not a joke or a satire and I would be ashamed and angry if my child was one of those frat boys. Where we diverge may be in how we think the offenders should be treated.
I’m Jewish. I wasn’t thrilled about the talk of hating kikes in the video, but as I’ve been saying, it came off as a lame attempt to be funny rather than a statement based on genuine hatred.
I’ve had friends who didn’t know I was Jewish say things like they were, “Jew-ed by their landlords”, or direct a few expletives towards Jews because the parents of Jewish kids in a public school were trying to stop the school from conducting morning prayers invoking Jesus. When I tell them I’m Jewish, first they usually think I’m joking. Then when they realize I’m not, they become very apologetic and embarrassed. That’s a teachable moment for them. We remain friends, they never say it again, and I never bring it up again. Life goes on. If they really hated Jews, that wouldn’t be the case.
(I’m wondering if I’m even allowed to write “kikes” here?)
There’s more than that. While it’s not the best quality video, something on the left side caught my eye as well. So do we punish everyone that took part?
In my opinion it’s even more reprehensible to make people spew hate against their own community just so they feel they can belong.
Agree with that^^
Interesting this came from a professional and not social fraternity.
^Yes, as an engineer that upset me greatly. We’re going to trust these knuckleheads to design our infrastructure? With those ethics, what’s to prevent them from taking shortcuts? That’s one reason I feel strongly they need more than a slap on the wrist. “Errors in judgment” like that in their profession could kill people.
We need to stop trying to make racist behavior seem humane and relatable by downplaying it as “stupid” or “just playing around.” That complacency is what allows racism to breed and escalate.
@simba9 Being embarrassed and apologizing after telling them that you are Jewish when they are saying degrading things isn’t necessarily a “teachable” moment. If you spent the time and taught them some history, then sure, yeah, maybe. Being embarrassed and apologizing because they were “caught” saying things in front of someone they, by your words, had no idea was Jewish? That may have only taught them not to say such things in front of you. It takes a lot to make people realize their words say a lot about them.
There is no absolute right way to deal with these things. A university has to decide on their policies and enforce them, Future students will take these policies into account when looking for where they want to go.
Nobody here has approved of their behavior. It’s a question of whether the students in question are genuinely racist, or whether they were simply being stupid. Some of us think it’s the latter and that while they’re deserving of some kind of punishment, the kids don’t deserve being demonized and having their heads chopped off.
@MomOf3DDs if they hated Jews, they would have stopped talking to me. Nothing changed in our relationship after I told them I was Jewish. It was easy to tell that they were saying things because they were ignorant, not because they were racist or anti-Semitic.
I think the engineering fraternity needs to take steps to make sure its chapters are following its rules and that the members are the representatives it wants. If they aren’t, pull the charters and the membership of the violators.
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All fraternities and sororities ought to remind chapters about what kind of behavior is appropriate and inappropriate. I don’t think it’s realistic to expect them to figure out beforehand which members and pledges might embarrass them. We haven’t developed the “Minority Report”-type processes to do that quite yet.
Words and actions have meaning, no matter how much we might want to divorce some words and actions from their meaning when they blow up in our faces. Saying racist things ‘ironically’ or ‘stupidly’ doesn’t make them less racist.
People keep throwing around the word hate, but it doesn’t take “hate” for something to be harmful. “I don’t hate blacks, I just don’t want my child going to school with them.”. “I don’t hate gays, I just won’t bake cakes for them.” “I don’t hate Jews, I just don’t want to do business at their banks.” People don’t have to hate in order for negative consequences to result.
So the comment about getting into the showers was what? Boys being boys? IMHO, if this is what boys are, we need more than a little help here.