<p>“Outside of a few exceptions, college extracurriculars are of minor importance to your efforts to find a job after graduation. There is no benefit to be gained by suffering through an overwhelming load of activities at the college level.”</p>
<p>By the way, I asked my wife if she thought it was odd that I had no friends. She said. “No, I think it is perfectly logical.” At first, I felt affirmed, then I wondered what she meant by that, then it dawned on me…ouch! </p>
<p>While most college extracurriculars are irrelevant in a direct sense to post-graduation jobs or education, that does not mean that they are not a worthwhile part of one’s college life.</p>
<p>collegehelp, if it makes you feel any better. I too don’t consider to have many friends, my husband is my best friend, others are acquaintances. While I go to work, have people to talk to and chit chat, go to lunch, I don’t divulge a lot of personal information either. My brother is in the same boat, we have a close family, we are each other friends. His wife often wonders why he doesn’t have close friends, he has tons of acquaintances and is happy that way. </p>
<p>Thank you, DrGoogle. That sounds a lot like me.</p>
<p>On the subject of charm and eloquence…They are useless in the long run without also having competence. What’s more, they can be used to deceive. “Talking a good game” will only get you so far for so long. If a business doesn’t realize that, so much the worse for the business.</p>
<p>“Outside of a few exceptions, college extracurriculars are of minor importance to your efforts to find a job after graduation. There is no benefit to be gained by suffering through an overwhelming load of activities at the college level.”</p>
<p>Whether they actually help you find the job isn’t the point. You can develop leadership skills through them that may be invaluable. My S is a leader in XYZ activity (or more accurately set of activities) in his campus. He has developed incredible leadership skills through running his organization and interacting with the presidents of similar organizations. He’s spoken in front of large crowds, moderated and led debates, and influenced others with a different point of view, and mobilized “his people” to do certain community tasks. On what planet are those things not valuable? </p>
<p>“On the subject of charm and eloquence…They are useless in the long run without also having competence. What’s more, they can be used to deceive. “Talking a good game” will only get you so far for so long. If a business doesn’t realize that, so much the worse for the busines”</p>
<p>Well, sure, but it’s not either/or. You seemed to act as though it was - that time spent interacting with others reduced one’s competence. </p>
<p>@collegehelp - as pizzagirl pointed out, you seem to see everything in black or white - there is no gray for you. You are happy with your life, and that is great. But it seems many of the posters here want more from life than you do, and feel their lives are richer through exposure to arts, athletics, cultural events, political participation, volunteering, and any number of activities. And we want this for our children, which is why we have goals of sending them to residential colleges. If the only goal was study study study, then all students might as well live at home and go to a local school - all the additional expenses on transportation, dorm supplies, room and board and other costs for a residential school are a total waste of time.</p>
<p>If a student is struggling with grades, of course working to bring those grades up must come first. But if a student is doing well in their classes, what a shame it would be to miss hearing Colin Powell speak, attending a performance by the American Shakespeare company, going to an MLB game, attending musical performances, running charity races, and volunteering, to name a few of the extracurriculars D has taken advantage of. We’ve always found our kids focus better on academics when they are physically active, so going to the gym and participating in rec sports, to me, help her GPA rather than hinder it. At no other time in her life will she has such a plethora of activities to participate in, at no (additional) cost, and with so few other responsibilities to get in the way.</p>
<p>Many of us will never see the happiness you find in your life. You will never see the happiness we find in ours. I haven’t heard anyone here argue that charm and eloquence trump competence. In some fields, such as engineering, competence is the most crucial factor. In others, such as sales, charm and eloquence carry greater weight. For most of us, having a combination of the two helps us perform well in interviews to help us get jobs and be better workers, team members, friends, and productive citizens. </p>
<p>InigoMontoya, you sum up perfectly what so many of us re trying to tell the OP. He doesn’t just see it as black and white but valuable (study and stats only) vs. useless (anything that is not studying and stats). All of my kids have found great satisfaction from EC’s whether or not they are in any way related to their jobs or school. </p>
<p>S bought a boat at auction and loves to tinker with it in his spare time. It is not related to his job and it wont help him get ahead but he enjoys it, with and without his friends. Older D swims and kayaks in her spare time. She swam on the team in HS-who knows if it got her into college, but it helped her to work as part of a team and occasionally put others first. She has to work as part of a team now and has rapidly moved up in her job. I suspect her swim team experience helped. My youngest participates in a variety of EC’s. Some are for her satisfaction only, other to helps those in need, others to further her education. The saddest thing I can imagine is any of my kids sitting at home nose in books without a friend to speak of. What a wasted life for anyone! </p>
<p>“If a student is struggling with grades, of course working to bring those grades up must come first.”</p>
<p>InigoMontoya, I agree with this. Do you not agree that many students fail to do what you suggest? What about the 50% who drop out? What are they doing with their time?</p>
<p>I am focusing on the students who don’t keep up their grades (the majority) while other posters are focusing on the group who can get good grades AND do extracurriculars or socialize a lot (which is fine, if that is the case).</p>
<p>But, are there schools or majors where academics are not potentially all-consuming? Shouldn’t professors always be challenging even the best students? </p>
<p>False dichotomy. The thing is, C students in college don’t attend lectures and concerts. That is because they are either 1) struggling or 2) have no intellectual curiosity or cultural interests. Most colleges have a 2.1 minimum GPA requirement in the major, so a C student isn’t going to last long in any case.</p>
<p>@collegehelp - Again, you are looking at life through a different lens. It may be that 50% of students drop out. What is the breakdown of that percentage between community colleges and state universities (where students may transition in and out of education rather than follow a linear 4-year path), and campuses that the most of the posters here are talking about, the campuses where the majority of students are residential? I know the schools D applied to all had 4-year graduation rates above 70%, 6-year graduation rates in the high 80 to low 90 percent. These are very different populations from a community college or directional State U. A student who is commuting to school, working full-time, has significant responsibilities at home, and is facing other issues (poverty, poor high school preparation, illness) is much more likely to need longer to complete an education, and therefore drop out temporarily or permanently (and BTW, 50% is not a majority, even if that is an accurate drop-out rate).</p>
<p>Are there kids who party away and waste their parents money? Yes, I’ve seen it happen in my family, but you’ll not convince me of your world-view where this is the majority of students. And yes, there are schools and majors where academics are more life-consuming than others (but even engineering students at MIT find time to pull pranks). Students SHOULD be challenged - but there is a difference between challenging someone and burning them out. We’ve already ascertained that you do not expect the same things out of life as many of the rest of us, so we will never agree on this issue. </p>
<p>I believe D is being challenged. I have seen the level of her workload increase this year, even though she was in a very solid private college preparatory high school, and many of her classmates have found college easier than high school. I’m glad she is being stretched and working harder than ever, but I’m also grateful she has an opportunity to enrich her life beyond what takes place in the classroom and library. </p>
<p>Why do you insist on focusing only on those students who fail? I haven’t seen anyone here suggesting that a student who won’t make the effort should reap the stated benefits. But you seem to think every student should live a life like yours. You want to force every student into a life of nothing but studying, regardless of what they are accomplishing. You have a life that works for you. You have a family that loves you. You are very fortunate. But you will obviously never understand the viewpoint of those of us who seek more, who seek to be well-rounded, who search for a balance in our lives, so there’s really no point in further discussion.</p>
<p>It’s a reaaaaalllly long leap from “students who spend all their time partying with friends are likely to get poor grades and drop out” to “students who go to guest lectures, the madrigal concert, and a few basketball games with friends are likely to get poor grades and drop out.” I’m sorry your life is what it is, collegehelp, but most people are able to enjoy activities beyond studying and not compromise their academic goals. </p>
<p>“But, are there schools or majors where academics are not potentially all-consuming? Shouldn’t professors always be challenging even the best students?”</p>
<p>No. One needs to have a life as well. Good grief, I was Hardcore Nerd Central in college but even <em>I</em> managed to go out with girlfriends, go on dates, see movies, attend football games and sometimes just hang out and discuss music and boys and fashion. </p>
<p>I just had a talk with someone who works for me about his long hours. Last year when he was working on a major project for 6 months, he was sending out emails constantly after midnight. I told him that I wasn’t going to give him more kudos for working such long hours. I expected him to manage the client so he wouldn’t be working that kind of hours. By always pulling such long hours, it meant he was overwhelmed, it meant he had no capacity to take on additional responsibility. Whenever I have my performance review with my manager, I always let my manager know that I can take on additional responsibility. This is something students should learn while in school, to do better time management.</p>
I think this also represents a misunderstanding of what it means to challenge the best students. It doesn’t mean assigning them 50 page papers instead of 10-page papers, or giving them P-sets with 100 problems instead of one with 20 problems. It means giving them work that fully engages their minds. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they will need all their waking hours to do it. Also, the best students don’t like having their time wasted with busy work.</p>
<p>It’s not even always about time management, oldfort, but people without any outside interests can also convince themselves that they are indispensable and are never “off” work and their employees should be the same. H had a boss who emailed at midnight or 2 am and even from his hospital bed (for a stress-related illness, to no one’s surprise). He is now in another agency that sometimes works with H and tries to control what H and his staff do-and has done it from the hospital yet again! I don’t think this guy will make it to 70. Unless one is dealing with literal life and death, NOTHING is so important that it can’t wait until the next day-especially if you’re in the hospital. </p>
<p>There is life outside of work-as there should be. No one lays on his deathbed wishing he had worked harder or gotten a higher gpa. At least I hope not.</p>
<p>None of those numbers is particularly surprising when you consider the admission selectivity of each type of school, and the academic ability and motivation of students attending each type of school. Graduation rates have more to do with the “quality” of students than anything else.</p>
<p>An individual student’s chance of graduation likely varies much less across the different types of schools that s/he may attend (assuming basic things like affordability and availability of desired academic offerings).</p>
<p>Ch, What’s your point? You’re the one setting up the straw man that those who don’t graduate didn’t do so because they were too busy editing the student newspaper or attending the Madeleine Albright lecture when they should have been studying. Which is ludicrous. </p>