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I think Ken's posts demonstrate very well why taking the job is an excellent idea!
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<p>Yes, whatever you do, make sure your children don't end up like me.</p>
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Yes, whatever you do, make sure your children don't end up like me.
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<p>Indeed. </p>
<p>What HS junior doesn't need money? Every kid that age should have the opportunity to earn some of his or her money. There's nothing "unnatural" about taking a job that requires few skills when one has few skills.</p>
<p>I expect my S to get a job when he's old enough, and to continue to learn Latin, too; the two are not incompatible, except for those too protected by their parents to find that out.</p>
<p>First of all, a summer job does not get into an elite college. My DD never had any job in summer and she got in 5 of thr top 20 university. </p>
<p>That being said, I really wished she had taken a job like that. The purpose is to appreciate how hard to make a $. My DS who is two year younger tha DD has worked very briefly at a $9 an hour part time job. He now has a Roth IRA and would walk a mile to save $0.50, figuretively speaking.</p>
<p>PS, I only read the first three posts on this thread.</p>
<p>Ken. I just read through this thread. You seem to be taking this summer job thing way too seriously. It really doesn't merit that much discussion. In our house it's a no brainer. Everyone gets a job. Not just in the summer but all through high school. I would be very leery of hiring someone or even hanging out with someone who never worked a day before graduating from college. I won't repeat all of the obvious reasons that have been stated so far.</p>
<p>In addition, kids should work at those types of jobs. They should do it to learn that it is NOT want they want to do for the rest of their lives.</p>
<p>There's a couple previous threads on this topic, so all I'll add again is that my husband and I are in favor of summer work. The kids have to go fill out the applications, follow up, nail the job down, go to work if they are scheduled despite what is happening with their friends, open a bank account, save a percentage of their wages...it's all a life lesson and one they my husband and I don't lift a finger to help with. We never gave allowances so by the time my oldest two boys hit 16 they couldn't wait to find jobs and have money of their own. Fortunately in the midwest a good chunk of kids weathly or not, hold down summer jobs so we aren't burdened by the thought of "summer enrichment" vs. "summer job". Twenty hours a week gives the kids plenty of time for tennis, golf, boating, beaching it, whatever and just enough gas money to get them where they want. My sons and their friends gravitate toward restaurant jobs just because those jobs tend to leave their days open for other things. I'm all for it and think it is clearly a necessary step in "launching" your children.</p>
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I would be very leery of hiring someone or even hanging out with someone who never worked a day before graduating from college. I won't repeat all of the obvious reasons that have been stated so far.
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<p>We have to separate out two things. What students do before college (when they are children) and what they do during college. </p>
<p>I never said that it isn't beneficial to get a job before college, I gave a specific example where it really helped someone I knew. But pouring slushies is not likely to provide a lot of advantages. It menial, mindless work. Better to open and run your own lemonade stand than work at six flags pouring slushies. That is my point.</p>
<p>As far as during college goes, there is a HUGE advantage to getting jobs and internships. But in this case it is even more important to develop relevant work experience. If you've had non-menial work in high school, that will help you get non-menial work and internships in college. People who disagree with me on this point are being disingenuous, frankly. </p>
<p>Children of privilege are not going to learn financial responsibility from a minimum wage part time job. The money doesn't matter, so it is more likely to teach financial irresponsibility. That is my other point.</p>
<p>If parents want to truly impart financial responsibility, there are all kinds of ways to do that. But 20 hours a week at a slushie stand for one summer isn't going to accomplish that goal.</p>
<p>no, this is not a serious matter, but I was just replying to the OP's query, and then fending off personal attacks on myself and my family.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>If you've had non-menial work in high school, that will help you get non-menial work and internships in college. People who disagree with me on this point are being disingenuous, frankly. >></p> </blockquote>
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<p>Perhaps...but just because you have done "menial work" does not mean you are slated to do so for the rest of your life...and Ken...that is what you are implying. Maybe that's not what you MEAN...but it's what you are implying in your posts.</p>
<p>I'll be disingenuous. Both of my kids did menial work in high school and in the summers in college. And it has been good experience for both of them. It's a summer job for crying out loud.</p>
<p>Sure...if you are able to get a terrific internship in finance on wall street...and you're a finance major, you should take that job. BUT just because you wait tables in the summer or do another "menial" job doesn't mean you'll never get hired in your career job. </p>
<p>Oh...my husband worked tons of menial jobs...tons. And he's a successful professional. I worked nothing but table waiting jobs in both high school and college. I also had many many job offers in my field of work when I graduated from college.</p>
<p>I should add that I have a high respect for folks who do those "menial jobs". Bottom line....we NEED those folks and should be grateful they are working those jobs. </p>
<p>Just for the record...my kids did the lemonade stand thing every summer when they were little kidlets. Maybe they should have put this on their college applications:)</p>
<p>Ken...you are way overgeneralizing.</p>
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I expect my S to get a job when he's old enough, and to continue to learn Latin, too; the two are not incompatible, except for those too protected by their parents to find that out.
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<p>Well, at 16 I didn't have the intelligence or self-direction to self-study Latin from scratch. I still don't. Your son is much more self-motivated and smarter than I will ever be. But that's not saying much. The worst thing you can have, is for your kid to end up like me!</p>
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Perhaps...but just because you have done "menial work" does not mean you are slated to do so for the rest of your life...and Ken...that is what you are implying. Maybe that's not what you MEAN...but it's what you are implying in your posts.
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<p>Of course I'm not saying that or implying that. It's obviously not true, so I wouldn't say it. People who need money do all kinds of work to make money, and people also choose to do menial work for all kinds of reasons.</p>
<p>But if you have better options, you should take them, because they will open up further opportunities. And if you don't need the money, you're better off doing an unpaid internship. That's my view.</p>
<p>I've been avoiding posting on this thread for a while but I will say that I am a business owner and I look at every job someone has had. Even the most menial job has merits.
I have also taught interviewing to college students and I encourage them to select a quality i.e. "I am very punctual." and then follow up with a specific example "when I worked at Ken's car wash I was on time every day and washed more cars than anyone else."
A former boss and I both started out at McDonalds. We used to talk a lot about how it taught us a lot about how to treat people, about work ethic, about life. We often lamented how young adults now have almost never worked at that type of job and they lack a whole series of skill sets that would serve them well in ANY job.
So...I respectfully disagree.</p>
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>>If you've had non-menial work in high school, that will help you get non-menial work and internships in college. People who disagree with me on this point are being disingenuous, frankly. >></p>
<p>Perhaps...but just because you have done "menial work" does not mean you are slated to do so for the rest of your life...and Ken...that is what you are implying. Maybe that's not what you MEAN...but it's what you are implying in your posts.
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The statement you quoted does not imply that. You are holding kenf1234 accountable for the converse of what he said, a logical fallacy.</p>
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A former boss and I both started out at McDonalds. We used to talk a lot about how it taught us a lot about how to treat people, about work ethic, about life.
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<p>Yes, but you probably worked at McDonalds because you needed the money. Working for money you need is very very very different from working to placate your parents or to make money to buy video games and whatever else young people spend money on these days.</p>
<p>Sorry, nope. I worked at McDonalds because my very traditional East Coast parents felt I should earn my own money. I was not given a car or insurance money for it, or anything else that should be earned.</p>
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Sorry, nope. I worked at McDonalds because my very traditional East Coast parents felt I should earn my own money. I was not given a car or insurance money for it, or anything else that should be earned.
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<p>I would classify that as needing it. Parents can structure things, if they want, so kids <em>need</em> to work. That is not the situation described by the OP.</p>
<p>If you had worked in an office, I bet you would have learned a lot more, perhaps profoundly more because you might have been mentored by someone with knowledge and experience. If you could have worked at an office over a period of time, you would develop contacts and references that would help you in the long run as well.</p>
<p>"Yes, but you probably worked at McDonalds because you needed the money. Working for money you need is very very very different from working to placate your parents or to make money to buy video games and whatever else young people spend money on these days."</p>
<p>No, it's not. One learns a lot and also impresses future employers -- including employers offering professional jobs -- by working jobs like those at McDonalds.</p>
<p>"
But if you have better options, you should take them, because they will open up further opportunities. And if you don't need the money, you're better off doing an unpaid internship. That's my view."</p>
<p>What's your view based on?</p>
<p>I've worked in H-R -- including recruiting -- at a Fortune 500 company, and typically young people who have worked a real job, including menial ones, have experience that is far more impressive than those who've done unpaid internships.</p>
<p>When someone has been hired and is earning a salary, they get more screening than do unpaid interns, and more is expected of them. Unpaid internships can be very easy to get through family connections, and often unpaid interns do next to nothing and learn next to night</p>
<p>Employers aren't going to pay someone to sit around doing nothing.</p>
<p>"I bet you would have learned a lot more, perhaps profoundly more because you might have been mentored by someone with knowledge and experience."</p>
<p>Not true. Mentoring takes a lot of time and effort. When one is working a paid job, one's supervisor will "mentor" you, meaning the supervisor's job is to make sure that you do what's needed for your job to be accomplished so the company can be profitable.</p>
<p>With an unpaid intern, staff may be perfectly happy to let that person sit around doing nothing while getting no attention. Unpaid interns aren't needed, and workers are busy. Most don't have the free time to mentor. This particularly is true in the current economic situation in which workers are having to do extra work in order to keep their jobs in this era of layoffs.</p>
<p>Also, someone who has never worked any kind of job is not going to know basics about how to handle a work situation. Staff don't have the time to lead such a person by the hand.</p>
<p>I'm not sure why this thread has gotten under my skin. I am tempted to defend myself, posting my resume and a listing of all the prestigious and office jobs I have held....including some while I was an undergraduate and graduate student.
I'll restrain myself and go have a drink in Sinners Alley.</p>
<p>The assumption that unpaid interns are shiftless coddled ne'er-do-wells while slushie-pourers are paragons of hard work and virtue is just bizarre. A smart, eager young person, willing to do whatever work that needs doing in an office, will find plenty of opportunity in any kind of office to learn and grow. </p>
<p>They give you a mundane task, you figure out how to improve things and impress them with your skills. They give you higher level tasks. Haven't you ever worked your way up in a company? The process and skills can start as a teenager working in the summer. That can't happen with slushie-pouring.</p>
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I'm not sure why this thread has gotten under my skin. I am tempted to defend myself, posting my resume and a listing of all the prestigious and office jobs I have held....including some while I was an undergraduate and graduate student.
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<p>But is it due to McDonalds, or due to your own talents and personality? Do you honestly believe you would have been less of a success if your parents had bought you a car and ordered you to tutor kids in reading in your extra time, instead of making you work at McDonalds to buy your own car? That's the question at hand here.</p>
<p>Anyway, I've caused enough trouble for one weekend, I'll stop with this. Please bash away below at will, and don't let your kids grow up to be like me.</p>
<p>I can't speak for ebeeeee, but I'll answer that one for myself: I would not be the person I am without the fast-food and cocktail waitress (UGH - at BEEFSTEAK CHARLIE'S :D) jobs I held. They did a lot to knock, as my youngest would say, some of the snot out of me, and give me a much wider view of the world, and plenty more. </p>
<p>I honestly and wholeheartedly believe that I would have turned out very differently if I had been handed the car I worked for instead, and handed cushy internships in high school instead of going out and filling out applications and interviewing for the jobs I could get for myself. </p>
<p>And that's why D scooped ice cream when she was in h.s., and S is a camp counselor. </p>
<p>I would like to think I'd have insisted on their finding their own jobs even if I'd thought it would tank their college applications and made it hard for them to find meaningful internships/research jobs/etc. later on. But you know what? It didn't, it hasn't, it won't, and on we go. </p>
<p>Like ebeeeee, I find it hard to put my finger on why I can't just roll my eyes and leave this thread, having stated my case several times over (and read other people's excellent statements, too).</p>
<p>I think a big piece of it has to do with the flabbergasting sense of entitlement I see in so many kids and parents around me: My car is bigger than yours, and it cost more, so I'm not subject to silly traffic rules. I live in _<strong><em>, so I can park in this no-parking zone. I go to _</em></strong>_, so get out of my way - I'm on my way to my internship at mommy's office. I have "talents"; I'm headed for bigger things. </p>
<p>I'm not accusing anybody here of harboring sentiments like that. Just trying to get a fix on why this thread feels important to me.
(And btw, ken, I wasn't accusing you of lying - the "i have a friend" or "someone I know well" trope is a pretty common way of talking about ones own experiences, for one thing, and for another, I asked a question; I didn't accuse.)</p>