D is a CS major, and said she spent 2 hours in a TA’s office hours today waiting to get a question answered. She said that the TA is Indian and the students in front of her were Indian too and only discussed the problems/ issues in Hindi. She was frustrated because she said she did not mind waiting in most office hours because she learns a lot from the discussion, but this was a waste of time.
I don’t know the protocol for this, but I suggested that she politely ask if they can discuss the problems in English so she can learn and participate too. They must speak English because the class is in English. I also suggested that if not, then perhaps the could at least answer her questions first, so she does not have to wait for hours of that.
Can someone tell me whether my suggestions are appropriate, or recommend a better approach? I don’t want her to be rude, but it does not seem like she should have to wait for 2 hours while everyone speaks Hindi either.
All the office hours I’ve ever gone to or conducted have been between me and 1 or a handful of other people while others wait outside. It is just not within my experience for office hours to be conducted where others can overhear others talking to the TA.
I would have her email the TA and ask if she can make an appointment or contact another TA.
Apparently the TA is the only one with office hours today.
She said this happens with one of the Chinese TAs too. All the Chinese students go and they discuss everything in Mandarin during office hours. She said she has never had to wait this long before though. She forwarded me an email before where she had, sent a question to the TA who replied in Mandarin. I’m pretty progressive, but that is frustrating.
D is very good at classic Latin though. Maybe if she TAs next year she should only answer questions in Latin. That should greatly reduce the number of questions she gets. lol
@romanigypsyeyes “All the office hours I’ve ever gone to or conducted have been between me and 1 or a handful of other people while others wait outside. It is just not within my experience for office hours to be conducted where others can overhear others talking to the TA.”
It could be because of the subjects. I know that both of my Ds say this is done for math and CS classes because they are all asking the same questions about the same problems, projects, or issues. It just saves a lot of time.
However, they also do sometimes go to see the professor or TA 1 on 1 if it is something private. For example, in the same math class where D2 goes to listen to students questions, she got a 68 on a test last month. So she scheduled time to review it with the prof privately (no one want to discuss that in front of everyone). He reviewed it with her, said the TA made two significant grading errors, and he raised it to an 80. From D+ to B- Yay!
Office hours are usually reserved for 1-to-1 tutoring or discussion. The language that is used for this 1-to-1 communication, unlike during the class time, does not have to be English. Typically, when students do not come in as a group, the next student will be kept out the office waiting (for privacy reason, for example, some students do not feel comfortable with another student inside the office, particularly when the questions asked are not sophisticated ones). It is kind of first come first served, like seeing a medical doctor.
This is where the use of TAs is less than ideal. They have rather little experience in how to deal with the situation where a student occupies so much time that services cannot be provided to other students.
I think it is perfectly fine that your D politely asks whether she can join the discussion and ask whether the discussion can be conducted in English. The TA or the student already inside the room may decide to keep their discussion as a private matter. If so, it is ok for your D to politely ask for an estimate about her wait time. She then can decide whether she wants to wait. If the responses from the TA are not professional, complain to instructor, department chair, or dean.
Given your description of what had happened, I am afraid it was probably not up to the point for complaining yet.
I think it would be perfectly reasonable for your D to request either of the solutions you proposed in your OP. She could ask them to speak English so she can participate or request that her question be answered first so she does not have to sit through a session that she cannot understand. I cannot imagine that any reasonable TA would not agree to one of those solutions.
If neither of those solutions are amenable to the TA, then I would take it up with the instructor. From there I would go to the Department Chair if necessary. I would communicate with the instructor and the Department Chair in writing via email stating only the facts and asking for his/her advice on how to proceed. That way there can be no misunderstandings that might blow the whole thing up into some very public racial fiasco.
If this is the type of office hours where a lot of students crowd into the TA’s office to hear answers to the same question(s) - i.e. a free-for-all - then she should definitely request that they be conducted in English. In general, these TA’s should be conducting sessions in English anyways for the practice. If the TA doesn’t comply, I would go to the professor.
The problem of TAs leading group discussion of particular lessons - different than the particular situation that Much2learn has brought to us here - was one of the biggest concerns I had when my first child went to college.
My concerns were actually not with the idea that a different language would predominate in the discussion, but that thickly accented English would make it next to impossible for him to follow along.
It sounds here as if the door has been left open, both figuratively and literally, for discussion by more than any one particular student, and by extension, to all those students for whom more discussion would help to broaden their understanding of the work they must do.
In such an instance, I would also say that where the open door policy allows for group involvement, such involvement should certainly not preclude one based on a language barrier.
I think the pattern and practice of holding the open door sessions, not exclusive or limited to one student, necessitates that one also open the floor to involvement, inclusion, inquiry and discussion by all eligible students.
Otherwise, the TA can seek permission to institute Indian-language sessions where it is made clear that for those who desire their support be given in (one assumes) their first language, such sessions are available to them.
@prof2dad “office hours are usually reserved for 1-to-1 tutoring or discussion.”
She said there were 3 or 4 students who all stayed in there the whole time. Not a 1 on 1. And that the door was open, so it was not private.
@prof2dad “Given your description of what had happened, I am afraid it was probably not up to the point for complaining yet.”
I agree. Especially since said she didn’t ask them to speak English, because she did not want to be rude.
I thought it does not seem reasonable to help a group of students and leave one out. I need to encourage her to be more assertive if this is a recurring issue.
If I were the professor and a TA came to me with this request, I would tell him he can do anything he wants with his own time. He can’t do this during his paid, stated office hours. No way.
If there were 3 or 4 students staying in there the entire time, it was not a private discussion. If so, the use of a foreign language is insensitive when not all the students use that foreign language.
@sylvan8798: Do you know if there are statements inside of any college or university guidelines which clearly state that outside of language courses (where one would expect instruction to be in the language being taught) and courses designed to deliver cultural instruction, all classes will be taught in English?
I totally agree with your comment about the paid, stated office hours. Great call.
@sylvan8798@waiting2exhale
I can’t imagine that US colleges would think to specify that all classes will be taught in English, I think it is just, assumed if it isn’t a language class.
As you said, I think it would be great if they have a Hindi OH to help those students if there were a similar OH in English so everyone can participate.
She was resistant to saying anything because she is afraid of seeming intolerant. I tried to convince her that it was a reasonable request and not intolerant to want to be allowed to participate. I suggested that if there was any question about intolerance, it would fall on them since the students and the TA in the office were all guys and they were leaving out the only girl there by speaking Hindi.
I am hoping I can convince her to speak up and not let this continue.
I am getting confused. You want to demand the TA and other student to speak only English in their after-class private tutoring meetings so you can overhear and learn from it. And this is not supposed to be a joke?
The meeting is their privacy and is supposed to be in any language that they are comfortable to use. It wasn’t even part of a class. Do you know that U.S. does not have an official language? No. English is not the U.S.‘s official language, nor is most of colleges’ required language of private conversations within the school ground, if all parties of the conversations agree to it.
You do not have a right to dictate terms of other people’s academic conversations for your benefit, if you are not part of the meeting, whether some parties of a meeting are paid or not.
Next time, why don’t you bring a Kindle and read something?
Well that puts an interesting spin on the situation. I look forward to hearing how she works this out.
My D is a Stats major taking CS for the first time and she has spent many hours with her professor during office hours and beyond, actually (this is a LAC, no TAs) . It would be very difficult if she were’t able to get that time with her professor, she was really struggling at first.
I can’t imagine a more imposing scene than a bunch of men in a male-dominated major speaking a language common to them and not including me. I’d find that very intimidating, personally.
“She was resistant to saying anything because she is afraid of seeming intolerant.” I hadn’t thought there could be any sense of offense in such a request, but I do understand once you say it.
“I suggested that if there was any question about intolerance, it would fall on them since the students and the TA in the office were all guys and they were leaving out the only girl there by speaking Hindi.”
Now that’s a “gotcha!” Hopefully she will not have to counter with what is tantamount to invoking actionable offenses, violations and remedies in order to have resolution. That could be very uncomfortable for anyone who was already sensitive to appearing to offend her classmates.
You know that instruction the teachers tell us in grade school about braving the discomfort and raising our hands to ask the question on our minds? They always say, “Trust me, you’re probably not the only one who has that question. You’re the only one brave enough to ask.”
Every single office hours I’ve been to for a math or CS class has been conducted as in the OP. This allows the TA to address multiple students all at once if they’re having the same issue, which is really common, or for students to work together while the TA is helping other students.
In my opinion it is perfectly okay to ask the TA to conduct office hours in English, and complain to the professor or other people in the department if that doesn’t happen. To be quite frank, I’d be a bit concerned about cheating also.