@fauve: Inexperienced, inebriated women: A condition enabled by Harvard’s turning a blind eye to underage undergraduate drinking. Before calling out the splinter in one’s neighbor’s eye…
Daughter graduated a couple years ago from Harvard and her thought is that the final clubs are really not that different than the fraternities on any other campus. In fact, the percentage of students involved in the clubs is much less than a typical Greek system.
Yes, they have parties with alcohol, yes, they often have a guest list, yes, young men are often interested in the young women and vice versa (there’s a shocker). Her opinion was that lack of self-esteem and insecurity were the bigger problems than the clubs themselves. If you don’t want to be a woman in a short skirt and heels on a winter night waiting to get in to a club, then don’t do it! There are other things to do.
As @notjoe mentioned, the FCs are the 3rd most likely place for someone to report an “unwanted sexual advance”, behind the dorms and houses. But the image of the FCs as bastions of male privilege make a lot of people angry.
Personally I don’t care for frats, FCs or Country Clubs, for that matter. But to recommend expelling students that join is silly.
Fauve, I would be curious to know whether you are a student or a parent?
What I had expressed earlier is that our daughter was not influenced by the existence of Final clubs. She has been to their parties and she didn’t really enjoy them. Anyone who attends one of their events does so willingly, no one is forcing them to be there.
It isn’t our daughters scene, she is a strong independent young woman and she would not tolerate disrespectful behavior for a second. They make up a very small percentage of the student body and there is absolutely no reason to have them influence someone’s experience there unless they wish them to.
Obviously, no one is “forcing” anyone to go to the final clubs. Yet, if one’s teammates, freshman friends and block mates do their socializing there, one might want to join them without the binge-ing, stacked M/F ratio, and shady culture. The strong FC alumni connections available only to male club members to high-power jobs in finance, consulting, and banking is also undeniable.
During junior and senior years when the above businesses come to recruit Harvard students, your DD’s classmates will quickly see the FC boys gain quick attention and advantage. Count yourself lucky if your DD is headed to a more academically inclined career.
Princeton’s system of co-ed eating clubs provide a much healthier atmosphere, where women have equal social power, have a place to dance, socialize and network with alumni, and they temper the bro-culture.
@notjoe Sorry I can’t decipher your splinter analogy.
The Hasty Pudding, mentioned by another poster, is also a blot on the freshman experience–social rejection of the majority of first-years before they even set foot on campus. And it’s supported by the administration and H real estate. Tsk.
It is a paraphrase of Jesus’ comment, about removing the log from one’s own eye before trying to remove the splinter from one’s neighbor’s eye. It’s about hypocrisy, the hypocrisy of criticizing places where inebriated, inexperienced women might suffer “unwanted sexual advances” when one’s institution turns a blind eye to underage undergraduate drinking.
Ditto with the Lampoon. But Mother Harvard, as they say, doesn’t coddle her young. I suppose it’s the first brush with rejection for many kids.
This is different from the example at hand. I said Harvard can indeed restrict students’ association with a particular club. That’s different from requiring association. And, in fact, they can require certain associations since it’s a private institution. They would have to endure the consequences, though. In your hypothetical example they would likely lose any federal grants that they get. And they would lose most of their students. So there’s that. Remember: It’s the GOVERNMENT that cannot legally restrict speech/association. Private institution can, but there are private consequences.
@brantly I am still not so sure that a private non profit organization can restrict association. Put another way could Harvard tell you if you go to temple they wont let you go to school there? Do you have a supreme court case that says what you said about private organizations. Could Walmart refuse service to Hispanics or people in wheel chairs? I dont know the answer to the question but I dont think it is clear cut
@proudparent26 Those are protected classes. You can’t discriminate on the basis on race, religion, or ethnic origin. Members of all-male private clubs are not a protected class.
In the subject of this thread, Harvard is not saying that those students are prohibited from belonging to final clubs. They are just saying that they cannot do so and be students are Harvard.
@proudparent26 , I don’t think the Hispanic or wheelchair analogy is quite right. Federal law is pretty clear about discrimination wrt race, sex disability. I think a better analogy would be if Dartmouth, for example, would be on solid legal footing if they were to implement a policy to expel all students that were members BLM. There would certainly be huge media fallout, but are they legally able to do it if they’re willing to forego Federal funding?
I had a daughter at Harvard until a few years ago, and she attended Finals Clubs parties. She never drank much and often left early. She handled any advances with clear lines, humor and, occasionally, compassion. Seriously. I often wish that more responsibility would be put on females: I think the endless characterization of women as victims can be demeaning at times. (I am NOT blaming victims, and am well aware of some situations where there is a true predator.)
This male culture is ancient and still pervades country clubs where Harvard grads used to belong, before the days of meritocracy, diversity and financial aid. At least one north shore country club, for instance, lists male members with their wives in parentheses.
Many organizations at Harvard are elitist in the sense that there is competition to get in. The literary magazine is hard to get onto for instance. The Signet club, ostensibly for the artistically talented, has an element of social selectivity. And so on. The male-only organizations like Hasty Pudding are changing, but it has been a long time since Harvard became co-ed. Cherished organizations are slow to change, alumni (not ae) are important donors, and the resistance is strong on many levels.
I don’t know where all this dismantling of the old-style Harvard values goes. The institution has been put on notice that change is necessary, in terms of sexual assault, and there are legal and financial risks to Harvard not addressing the issue, not to mention reputational.
It is more than obvious that no organization on campus should be allowed to discriminate based on gender (or race, sexual orientation, disability etc.) I am not really sure about organizations off campus- it’s a complex issue- and hope a voluntary resolution can be found.
The sensationalism of this thread title doesn’t really reflect the rigor and thoroughness of the report. Clearly administration preference would be for the off campus clubs to be inclusive of women.
The headline might as well be that all Harvard students who drink and/or engage in sexual activity should be expelled. Though I’ve never heard of a monastery with both genders included!! Harvard could mimic the Shakers and just separate men and women entirely!! Go back to signing in and out, chaperones, those other quaint social controls of days gone by- to go along with the quaintness of clubs.
Seriously I think the real problem is alcohol, which affects consent in murky ways.
p.s. As a post note, both my daughters, who attended different colleges and are now a bit older, tell me that they never, ever put a drink down, for fear of being drugged.
Hi: I am a parent – two sons at Harvard- One graduated and one is now an undergrad- Both were in a final club- the same club. Not all FCs are bad – the one they were in is also all male club - promoting Entrepreneurship- great friends-
good connections - diverse background – strong alumni connections to club members to high-power jobs in finance, consulting, and banking - yes they had parties but not with girls either from Harvard or from outside- they don’t own any building outside- so I won’t brush all clubs and all parties as bad-
“Strong alumni connections to high-power jobs in finance, consulting, and banking”—the opportunities not extended to female Harvard students. It’s not just about the drunken behaviors in clubs, it’s about the sober advantages when alumni cozy up to their FC prospects at recruiting events throughout junior and senior years.
I think my comment has been misunderstood. The opportunities in high-power jobs are available to all when corporations come for recruiting. I know my sons strongly recommending some of his female friends to jobs he came across. All Harvard students help each other- strong Alumni- whether one is in a FC or not. Majority of the FCs are well behaved, not the type of drunken parties as presented by some in this forum; yes there are some bad behaving students but it is more exception and not the norm.