Teach me about grad admissions

Graduate School
1

<p>Hi,</p>

<p>I am a senior at Tufts now and am quite well-versed by now in undergraduate admissions. As I am on the brink of graduation now, I've begun to think about where my schooling will continue next. I don't want to go straight to grad school--want to gather some professional experience for a few years--but I have some ideas of the kinds of programs and schools that would interest me. I'd appreciate any insight.</p>

<p>My big question is: I will graduate with a GPA of about 3.71-73. I am majoring in International Relations, with a minor in English. I have all the ECs and internships you could ever hope for. However, when I read some of the boards for grad school admissions to the country's top schools, I get the feeling that if you don't have a 3.9 you won't get into those top programs.</p>

<p>Does this hold true for all schools? I personally cannot imagine more than a handful people majoring in my field at Tufts have a higher GPA than I do. Grade inflation is not prevalent here. Will I not get into the kind of grad school I am interested in?</p>

<p>(BTW, some of the ones I'm interested in are:
-Columbia Journalism/SIPA dual-degree masters program
-Harvard Kennedy School
-Oxford IR masters
-Stanford IR and/or Journalism masters,
etc.)</p>

<p>Also, how important are Latin honors? I unfortunately fall a few hundredths short of summa cum laude (3.75), so will graduate magna. I will graduate with distinction in my major though (member of Sigma Iota Rho which is like the PBK of intl studies).</p>

2

<p>I don't see why you won't get into a top school. Your average seems more than good enough. Have you taken the GRE? make sure you score really high considering the schools you want.</p>

3

<p>No, I haven't taken the GRE yet, but I have always done really well on standardized tests so I'm not worried about that, really. </p>

<p>Anyone else?</p>

4

<p>Be aware of the application deadlines especially in relation to the GRE. For example Columbia's this year was Jan. 7 for admission this coming fall. That means you would have taken the GRE in October 2006 at the latest to ensure that 1) If you screwed up you could take it again and 2) if ETS screwed up there would be time to straighten things out. </p>

<p>There will be many fewer test dates and locations for the "new" GRE beginnning in September so keep a close eye on that if you don't take the current test fairly soon.</p>

<p>Unlike undergrad, graduate admissions is not so heavily a numbers game (in most subjects anyway). GPA and GRE will be important in departmental and university wide fellowship competition and obviously, there is a GPA cutoff almost everywhere, but your SOP, LORs and job/internship/research experience will be at least as important.</p>

<p>Which is not to say that GPA is unimportant - it just isn't usually a "make or break" factor. Applications are, in most cases, read fairly carefully by several professors and then discussed - my impression is that any qualified student will get a fair hearing. Obviously, though, a program that gets 200 applicants for 4 or 5 spots will have a much harsher "first cut" than one that gets 50. </p>

<p>ECs are important only if they are directly relevant to your field. </p>

<p>Finally, read up carefully on each program you're interested in so you can tailor your SOP to their strengths. Also, don't be afraid to talk to your professors about programs they think may be good fits for you - they will tend to be more "tuned in" to what's going on in the field than even a well connected undergrad can be.</p>

5

<p>WilliamC, thanks for your input.</p>

<p>So, I guess what I still want to understand is: assuming I do well on the GREs, and my recommendations, essays, and all other aspects of my application will be strong (and I think they surely will be), I am still very competitive for those schools? Or not?</p>

6

<p>lolabelle,
My S is a senior in college preparing to go directly into grad school. My understanding of the process from reading about it and talking to him, is that the most important things are your letters of recommendation and your Statment of Purpose (SOP.) No matter how qualified you seem to be for a particular grad school, if your SOP (which needs to be tailored to each school you are applying to) doesn't indicate that you are interested in a particularly narrow aspect that a current professor at the school is interested in, you are not going to be accepted. If your academic interests aren't the right fit for the professors in the department, it won't be a match. And I think that once your GPA is over 3.5, you are right in the mix.</p>

7

<p>Momof3sons:</p>

<p>Thanks so much; your post was very helpful. I basically just wanted to know if I have the basic requirements for entry into these schools -- i.e. the academic qualifications. Obviously, they are not enough -- my SOP and my fit with the particular school(s) will make or break my application(s). </p>

<p>Does anyone else agree or disagree with Momof3son's assessment?</p>

8

<p>lolabelle,
I also agree with previous posters about the GRE's being used as a cutoff factor. My guess is that it's the same with the GPA. Like you, my S always did well on standardized tests and did extremely well on the GRE's. If that was the most important measure for getting into Ph.D programs, he'd be in great shape. ;)<br>
Your GPA sounds quite high to me and I can't imagine it excluding you from programs. Sometimes, you can find out right on the school's web site what the average GRE's were of the accepted students, as well as the GPA. You may have to dig around a bit. My S is applying to Ph.D programs in Poli. Sci., with an emphasis in International Relations.</p>

9

<p>I'm going to blunt with you. Supposing that your GRE scores are good (not outstading, but not horrible either) your chances of getting in to the programs listed are:</p>

<p>-SIPA: Good, but its really competitive and most people applying have work experience under their belt.
-KSG: No way. They require at least a few years work experience, and even then its a long shot.
-Oxford IR: This is actually a much better possibility than KSG, but still a longshot. It will also end up being ridiculously expensive.
-Stanford IR: Good possibility. Like SIPA, you might want to get some work under your belt.</p>

<p>If you applied straight out of undergrad with the GPA you have now, decent GRE scores and nothing else (ie no published papers, no work experience, no letters of recommendation saying your a genius) you have have a somewhat decent shot at a few of those programs, especially since you have a good undergrad degree.</p>

<p>I know this is probably harsher info than you are getting from other posters, but anyone here who says your a shoe-in for SIPA is lying, and anyone who says you can get in to KSG is also lying. You have to face the fact that the four programs you listed are some of the best in the world, so the competition you are up against isn't just a bunch of undergrads with great grades, but alot of people who ahve been in public service for 7+ years and have work experience too.</p>

<p>The thing with IR masters, and masters in International Development also, is that they are usually professional degrees for people who are already working in the field, not for kids fresh our of undergrad. It's tough to put it like that, but not that many kids who are 22 and straight out of undergrad wind up at SAIS or SIPA and absolutely none wind up at KSG. IR schools are almost the same as top Business schools: They want people who are not only academically excellent, but also those who already have experience in the field.</p>

<p>As I said, if there are other things you have going for you that I dont know about (maybe you lived in Norway for 3 years, served a term in congress, can speak 5 languages or have published extensively in Foreign Affairs) than the situation is totally different. I am basing this on just the facts you gave me.</p>

10

<p>jmleadpipe,
lolabelle, the OP, did say, "I don't want to go straight to grad school-want to gather some professional experience for a few years...." I gather that she has some concern about her GPA.</p>

11

<p>mom,</p>

<p>That is what happens when you skim throuygh a message!</p>

<p>belle,</p>

<p>The advice I gave above still stands obviously, but if you were already planning on getting professional experience after your undergrad, you will be MILES ahead of many applicants. As I said above, experience changes everything. If you're to graduate with a 3.7+, decent GRE scores, solid letters or recommendation and then get a few years experience, you will be one of the stronger applicants at least at SIPA and Stanford. KSG and Oxford will always be hard to get into, but youre GREATLY increasing yoru chances every extra year you spend doing relevant work.</p>

12

<p>Hi again,</p>

<p>Yes, I definitely will not be applying straight from undergrad. I want to make the most of my grad degree and I think that professional experience is paramount to that.</p>

<p>So basically what you're saying, Jmleadpipe, is that if I do get that experience, and have the great recs I expect, then I should be a quite viable candidate at all these places? </p>

<p>I'm glad to hear a 3.7 GPA is solid. That was my worry -- you hear horror stories, quite exaggerated perhaps, about a 3.9 being your only hope. That's just not possible at my school, unless, perhaps, you're an art history or literature major. </p>

<p>Out of curiosity, for my friends with lower GPAs, would a 3.6 still stand strong? A 3.5?</p>

<p>And yet another question: the professor with whom I have the strongest relationship, my true mentor, happens to be an English professor. He knows me both personally and academically, whereas my other profs know me mostly academically. Would a recommendation from him -- which would be beyond stellar, I know -- not help for an IR grad school? The thing is, I'm about to graduate, and I am not going to feign a relationship with other professors just because I might need their recs later. How many prof recs do you usually need? Any professional recs? I know a history/foreign policy professor who could write me a rec, too.</p>

13

<p>Lolabelle,</p>

<p>I think with solid GREs and some work experience (especially if it has an international flavor) you could be a solid candidate for any of these programs. Of course they are all very competitive so your recommendations and essays will be important.</p>

<p>As far as recommendations, for a Masters program the most important thing is to have people who really know you well. An outstanding recommendation from an English professor is going to have a lot more weight than a good recommendation from an IR prof.</p>

<p>Most applications require 3 recommendations, so a general guideline would probably be 2 Academic and 1 Professional, although I guess this could change if you had more than a few years of work experience after graduation. I would suggest that you try to cultivate your relationship with both the English and the History/Foreign Policy professor as much as possible. Most people don't bother to stay in touch with professors after graduation, but it is critical to send them an update every few months. First they will be really happy to hear from a former student and second they will feel like they really know you as a person when it comes time to write grad school recs.</p>

<p>Out of curiousity, as a Tufts graduate why isn't Fletcher on your list? They would definitely know how rigorous the undergrad IR major is and would recognize your GPA as really outstanding.</p>

14

<p>Hi, Anton:</p>

<p>Thanks for your input. I am glad to hear you think that my English professor's outstanding recommendation would still bear some weight in an application to a school in a different field. That's really good to know. I was starting to get worried that I wouldn't be able to put his recommendation to use for me when I apply to grad schools, simply because I am not applying to English grad programs. Do other people agree with Anton?</p>

<p>Oh, and Fletcher would definitely be on my list. I didn't have it on my list before because I know that my GPA and coursework would be more easily interpreted by Fletcher as the undergrad IR program is actually run out of the exact same building! So I'm not so worried about that. I do, however, have to note that after four years on this campus, it'd be niec to study somewhere else. Don't get me wrong -- I've loved Tufts -- but a change of scenery might be nice. It might also be strange, after having gone to Tufts as an undergrad, to come back a few years from now, and have a grad experience. Not scratching it out as an option though! I know first-hand that Fletcher is amazing. Out of curiosity, anyone on this board go to the same school as an undergrad and grad student? Pros/cons?</p>

15

<p>Lola,</p>

<p>As far as your GPA is concered, 3.7 is probably the median for alot of top programs. The fact of the matter is that most people don't graduate with 4.00 GPA's from the social sciences (mainly because its extremely difficulut to NEVER get a "B" in your undergrad, especially in a discipline where so many of your grades are based on research papers, essay questions ect.) As far as your friends who have 3.5's or 3.6's, that shoouldn't be a problem either as long as they butress those grades with strong LOR's and good work experience.</p>

<p>So as I said, if you go out and get some relevant work (and this can really be anything, be it interning in a think tank, doing a political internship, being involved in a campagin, going abroad and working for a year ect.) you will likely have a very strong candidacy.</p>

16

<p>Jmleadpipe:</p>

<p>
[quote]
The fact of the matter is that most people don't graduate with 4.00 GPA's from the social sciences (mainly because its extremely difficulut to NEVER get a "B" in your undergrad, especially in a discipline where so many of your grades are based on research papers, essay questions ect.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm so glad to hear you say that! It's so true and yet you don't hear this from enough people. I feel a lot more confident in my academic achievements now.</p>

<p>I'm also glad that my friends with slightly lower GPAs shouldn't worry too much either, as long as they work hard after graduating this spring and before applying to grad schools in a few years, too.</p>

<p>Have a question, though: Oxford writes on its website that applicants to its grad programs should all have a 3.75 GPA. How stringent is that? </p>

<p>I definitely plan on doing many of the things you enumerated above. I should note, I am interested in IR programs because I want to be a foreign correspondent. As a result, I don't want to work on a political campaign (because I, for one, would want to report about it, not be involved in it), but I do want to work abroad. So I imagine journalistic work would take the place of political work, seeing I want to report about politics, not be in politics, right?</p>

<p>Do you agree with Anton that a really incredible recommendation from a professor not in the field of the grad program I'm applying to is better than an okay one from someone who is?</p>

17

<p>its easy to get a 3.9 cum in art history or literature?</p>

18

<p>Well, I just said it as an example, as I've never gotten less than an A (4.0) in the literature and art history classes I've taken. Whereas in the courses for my IR major, my grades range from B+ to A, and are usually an A- (3.666). The departmental averages for English and Art History at my school, at least, are higher than the averages in the IR, PoliSci departments, as well, I'm sure, than the science and engineering departments.</p>

19

<p>Lola,</p>

<p>I really don't know enough about Oxford admissions to tell you anything definite. In all cases, you can get into a program with a lower GPA than the "cut-off" point, but you will need to make up the ground in other parts of your application. However, if the cut-off is 3.75 and you graduate with a 3.73, there really isn't that much to be worried about.</p>

<p>I don't really understand why you would want to go to Oxford for IR, though. Sure, Oxford is a great school, but they aren't known for IR, as far I am know. If your going to go all the way out to England and blow 25K+ on a masters, you might as well apply to the LSE's IR program. I'm sure this has been mentioned many times already on CC, but when your going to graduate school, you need to look more specifically at the program your going into and not the school. It's great to have a gedree from Oxford or Cambridge, but if you can get a better IR degree somewhere else (i.e. Columbia or John Hopkins) than maybe you should do that.</p>

20

<p>lolabelle,</p>

<p>I can definitely understand the desire to go to a a different school from graduate work. I was at NYU for undergrad and I didn't even consider any schools in NYC when I started looking into graduate school. I was just curious if there were any other factors in play with respect to Fletcher.</p>

<p>As far as the gpa, I definitely think that a 3.7 will be more than sufficient for you to be competitive at the top US IR programs - SAIS, SIPA, Fletcher etc. Certainly the GPA is high enough that the decision would focus much more other the other aspects of your application. Unfortunately, I don't know anything about Oxford and didn't really consider KSG because it is really more of a public administration or public policy degree.</p>

<p>As far as your work experience, if Journalism is what you want to do then go for it and see where it takes you. IR schools know that people come from all different backgrounds and that is what they look for in a candidate. The most important thing is that your application gives them a clear understanding of how their program fits in with your career path and interests.</p>