Teach me about grad admissions

lolabelle · February 19, 2007, 4:02pm

Wow, you have all been so helpful, thank you!

In response to Jmleadpipe:

The reason I am considering Oxford is that one of my professors here at Tufts did his DPhil (PhD) in IR there and can't say enough about it. It's good to know, though,
that perhaps it's not as great as he makes it out to be. I'll certainly look into that. I will certainly also consider LSE, which is a school I got into as an undergrad. In the end, I liked the American college experience more for undergrad (campus environment, etc.) but LSE is definitely going to be up there when I apply to grad schools.

<h2>Does anyone else know anything of Oxford's IR rep? </h2>

In response to Anton:

Aren't you going to Fletcher next year? Please keep in touch and let me know how your experience is (t)here. I'm sure you'll love it! You're going for a PhD or MALD?

Anyway, you're right about KSG being more of a public administration degree. I only really looked into that last night, when a friend who graduated from Tufts a few years ago called to tell me she'd been accepted to the MPA program. As a result, it's unlikely I'll apply to KSG. It's really too bad KSG doesn't offer a true IR degree.

Does anyone know if they're likely to implement one?

Thanks for your comments re: my work experience. I definitely feel I'll be able to accumulate the life/work experience that shows how my IR grad degree will fit into my "career path and interests."

<hr>

Question to all who feel they can answer: which program is better -- Columbia's SIPA/Journalism dual masters degree or Stanford's dual intl studies/journalism masters degree? I actually know very little about Stanford's program, so if anyone has any input I'd appreciate it.

Also, how do IR masters students pay for their degrees? I'm guessing very few people get stipends. Any ideas? Subsidized loans? Working at the school?

anton1212 · February 19, 2007, 4:20pm

Hey lolabelle,

Looks like we are online at the same time so you will get another quick response. As far as my plan I was accepted early to Fletcher's MALD. Most likely that is where I will be heading, because I think it is going to be the best fit for me. I haven't decided yet though, because I am wait to hear back from SAIS and to get my Fletcher financial aid package sometime next month.

In terms of paying for the degree, my guess it that it is going to mean a lot of loans. I am planning to look into TA work that won't pay much, but I think will be good experience if I decide to continue on to a PhD. Otherwise, I am crossing my fingers because I have heard some rumors about students getting scholarships even if they are relatively small.

As far as KSG - I doubt they will be implementing an IR degree anytime soon, I'm not sure if it really fits with their positioning as a school as a School of Government.

dallas808 · February 19, 2007, 4:30pm

I think anton hits all the good points. Your academic records are very competitive as far as I could tell. What will keep you out is average experience, essays and recommendation. So, plan those out as you venture into the professional world.

The Fletcher School is definitely among the best of its kind in the world (I happened to befriend a few very successful Fletcher graduates) and Fletcher students have great access to resources of KSG, HBS and MIT. You should definitely apply there (using your Tufts connection as an edge).

lolabelle · February 19, 2007, 4:42pm

Thanks again, Anton, and Dallas, for all your input.

Would either of you be interested in telling me how SAIS/Fletcher/Gtown SFS all compare to each other as grad programs? I constantly hear that Gtown/Tufts/JHU are the best undergrad IR programs, but I haven't heard much about SFS at the grad level, and how it compares to SAIS & Fletcher. Thanks!

jmleadpipe · February 19, 2007, 5:27pm

lola,

Not to barge in, but in rsponse to your question regarding GTown, Fletcher and SAIS, I can only say that the main difference between SAIS and Fletcher is location. SAIS is in Washington, thats all there is to know really. Alot of people who end up going there do so because the program is located right in the center of American power, which usually gives them great connections during and after their schooling, be it in government, think tanks ect.

That said, if you do graduate from Fletcher, its not like doors are going to be closed to you. Its one of the best IR programs in the US, so it's not like you'll be overlooked.

Regarding GTown, I really have no clue how it stacks up in relation to SAIS and Fletcher, to be honest.

anton1212 · February 20, 2007, 8:55am

SAIS/Fletcher/SFS all offer excellent Masters programs each with its own character. These are the schools, I considered most heavily so I guess I can tell you something about their programs.

SFS: By far the smallest program, particularly good for foreign service - as the name suggests, it has the strongest focus on foreign language (SFS requires a foreign language assessment in addition to your recommendations as part of the application). There is a campus feel with resources available from the full university; average student age tends to be lower with more students straight from undergrad. The undergrad program has a somewhat stronger reputation than the grad program (at least that is my impression), but this remains an outstanding school. Within DC a lot of people considered SFS as second to SAIS in terms of prestige.

SAIS: This is the largest program of the three, it has a stronger economics requirement (as part of the application and once you are enrolled at the school). Students choose one area of concentration in addition to the required economics courses. SAIS offers the option to spend your first year in Bologna, Italy or in China, and has great connections with DC jobs. SAIS is located in DC not Baltimore like the rest of Hopkins. So while it benefits from the Hopkins name it doesn’t have a campus or any of the other university resources. The average student age is older than SFS with almost all students having work experience. Generally, SAIS is considered the #1 program for an MA in IR – however I believe this is a somewhat DC-centric view. If you want to end up in DC it is probably the best place to be, but if that isn’t your goal you should consider all of the options that are out there.

Fletcher: Fletcher is a medium size program, it is particularly known the flexibility of its MALD degree. Students can pick two concentrations and have the option to create their own concentrations. The only requirements are that students take at least one course in each division of the school, one quantitative course, a Masters thesis (this is optional at SAIS) and pass a language exam. Fletcher also allows students to take or audit courses in other Tufts programs, or to take courses at Harvard or MIT. The full resources of the university (library, gym etc.) are available to students. Average age and experience is very similar to SAIS. Fletcher is of course located in Medford. For many people this is a major drawback, it is not right in the heart of a city and it is not in DC. For others this is an advantage because of the campus feel, the academic environment and the extra resources at Tufts, MIT and Harvard. Fletcher students have a reputation for really LOVING their school.

As far as other schools, GW and American have a great reputation especially for people in DC, though to me they were something of a safety school compared to the three above. SIPA is supposed to be a good program, but I didn’t consider it because I went to undergrad in NYC. Also, I went to a grad school fair and while all of the other schools were very friendly and encouraging the admin officer from SIPA was condescending and really turned me off from the school. Harvard and Princeton both have programs that are more focused on Public Administration, although if you can get into Princeton the funding is REALLY good. Yale and Chicago are often forgotten in terms of the IR masters, probably in part because they are both very small programs and also because they require a lot of independent work since students basically create there own program. I am not sure about Yale, but I believe that students at Chicago take a lot of their classes in other departments throughout the University. Beyond that there are a lot of great schools it really depends on what you want and where you want to be. For instance, I was thinking about Boston University and UMass Boston as safety schools, even though they aren’t ranked I really liked the programs that were offered. I would definitely recommend taking your GRE’s while you are still in the college mode. That will also help you to figure out which schools will be the best fit.

UCLAri · February 21, 2007, 3:18am

So...I'm in a top IR program (as I've made painfully aware.)

The median age here is around 26, and the average years of work experience is about 3 or 4. Of all the programs I applied to, the ones I didn't get were SIPA and KSG. The only one I could afford, for better or for worse, was here (which probably worked out for me considering my career focus.)

Your undergrad GPA is fine. It will not hurt or help you in any way. My undergrad GPA was around yours, and I did fine come admissions time. It will just be a green flag amongst many other flags. Think of your GPA and GRE score as generally being green, red, or yellow flags. If they're dismal, then they're usually red flags and the admissions car stops. If they're yellow, then everything slows down, and more scrutiny is paid to other things going on. If they're green, then admissions just speeds right along to the next flag.

Yes, I realize my extended metaphor is painful, but it's what my profs used with me when it came time for me to apply. If you want to be a little more technical, then GPA and the GRE are usually just dummy variables (1 or 0) and everything else is a standard explanatory variable (an integer value), ceteris parabis. In the end, as long as the dummy variables are 1s, then the rest really decides your fate.

[quote]
Most applications require 3 recommendations, so a general guideline would probably be 2 Academic and 1 Professional

[/quote]

Excellent advice, and very true. I generally had 2 academic and 1 or 2 professional LoRs. I think for IR/PS I had my poli sci prof, a Japanese prof., and a former boss at an internship as my letters.

My recommendation when it comes to admission to any top IR program is to get some work experience first. Oh, and if you haven't taken any econ or calc, go and take some. The top IR programs all have a fair amount of math/econ involved. Oh, and I got into LSE... good program, but not exactly known for funding their foreign students.

I hate to be a shill, but if you're interested in the Pacific Rim (Asia, SE Asia, Latin America) at all, check out IR/PS. Otherwise, I think that anton has made some good recommendations, even if I don't agree that SFS is seen as second tier per se. I think that, based on my own experiences in DC and within the "walls of the policy circles," that it's first tier DC, and American and GWU usually get the glory of being the so-called "second tier." Of course, this is very hard to quantify, and a lot will depend on your area of interest. SFS is, as far as I can tell from what's published and what's said in the circles I bum around in, considered hot for Middle East stuff.

On a final note, I do think that you should be very much careful to consider financial support. Ours are not exactly "get rich quick" degrees unless you go into i-banking or go work the private sector. $60K of grad debt can really crimp one's style.

jmleadpipe · February 21, 2007, 2:15pm

UCLAri has obviously made alot of grat points, but I'd like to focus on his last one, namely the cost of getting an IR degree. As he said, IR is NOT a get rich quick degree. Heck, its usually not even a get rich slow degree. Thats why I am extremely wary of any IR (or public policy, public administration, international development ect.) degree that will put me 50K or 60K in the hole. Although everyone says the same thing regarding schools loans, i.e "You only get educated once! If the top schools admit you, youre a fool not to accept!" I think that realitistically thats not always the best advice. Alot of graduates from very good schools in field such as ours are kept away from jobs they would enjoy doing, such as working for Non_Proft organizations, or working overseas, just because the pay they would make wouldn't allow them to repay their student loans. I find that really dissapointing, honestly. I also find it ironic, since the degree that you obtained in hopes that it would lead to better employment has, in fact, kept you away from such employment due to its cost.
As UCLAri said, the fact of the matter is that most graduates in IR, even from the top schools, will not be making great money when they graduate. I will probably end up doing a masters in Public Policy or Public Administration and I am looking at programs that are either relatively inexpensive, or that will provide me with funding, mainly because I know that when I graduate I will probably have to take a job that pays a very average salary.

UCLAri · February 21, 2007, 4:06pm

Honestly, one of the key deciding factors in my choosing IR/PS was the fact that I'm in-state, and could therefore cut my loan burden in half.

Let's really break down the numbers.

Let's say you get $60K in loans with a 10 year repayment plan. You have a 6.8% APR. That amounts to about $690 a month, give or take a few dollars. Let's say you land your dream job with that famous non-profit. You make about $45K a year (this is generous). You're looking at about a 10-15% income tax, assuming no independents-- for the sake of being optimistic, I'll say 10% (who knows, all that capitalized loan interest might help out somewhere, I don't know.)

You're looking at a net income of about $3100 a month, controlling for state income tax and other withholdings. 3100-690 leaves you with 2410 to play around with each month.

$2410 to pay your rent, bills, hopefully maintain an automobile, pay for any business expenses your work won't cover, and maybe give you some leftover money for fun time later.

Now imagine the fact that some people will take upwards of $80K in debt in order to attend schools like KSG and SAIS. That would take off around $900 a month, ceteris parabis. That's almost a third of your income, assuming you even manage to get that plum $45K a year in the non-profit sector!

Seriously, people need to be cautious about considering too much debt.

jmleadpipe · February 21, 2007, 4:11pm

UCLAri broke it down alot better than I did, but his point is definately the same as mine: Think long and hard about your financial and work situation after graduate school before taking out that 70K loan. There is nothing wrong with getting a great education. There is nothing wrong with taking out a loan either, or having some type of debt when you finish school. there is, however, a need to be very cautious in planning for your future. Living with debt is not fun. I know enough people who have gone through it.

dallas808 · February 21, 2007, 6:41pm

May I suggest that UCLAri's analysis is too generalized? My experience is top programs do a much better job is placement. Anyone who is seriously thinking about IR programs should talk to the students and alums of these programs.

Here is something to chew on ...
MPA/ID graduates from KSG who enter consulting have an annual median salary of $110K.[1] Fletcher graduates did fairly well too.[2]

Note that graduates who stay in US usually earn more than the noted averages (due to lower wages in many foreign countries).

[1] <a href="http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/career/pdf/Class%20Plan%202005.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/career/pdf/Class%20Plan%202005.pdf</a>
[2] <a href="http://fletcher.tufts.edu/ocs/employmentreports.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://fletcher.tufts.edu/ocs/employmentreports.shtml</a>

jmleadpipe · February 21, 2007, 6:50pm

It has already been noted, ad nauseum, that getting into KSG is a pretty tough task in and of itself. I'm sure their graduates do fairly well upon graduation, but the point is that there are not that many of them. Saying that UCLAri's warning about spending too much on an IR program is generalized because KSG graduates clear a solid graduating income is like saying that spending 60K plus on an MBA is always a good choice because Wharton graduates make upwards of 110K once they are out. Hey, if you can get in to KSG, please feel free to enroll!

I still believe that it is very, very dangerous, especially in a field such as IR that is not known for being a money rich career choice, to just say "Hey, you will probably end up making big bucks if you go to a top program, so go ahead take out that 80K loan!" Also, what happens if someone goes to Fletcher or KSG and, upon graduation, wants to go work overseas or for a non-profit instead o pushing papers in some think tank or as a consultant? No dice, I would imagine.

UCLAri · February 21, 2007, 6:58pm

dallas808,

That's why I used the example of someone going into non-profit. How many people working at NGOs and non-profits are making $110K a year? Hell, how many people in the public sector make eve close to that much? Right there, you've accounted for about 75% of KSG grads. Median salary for public salary was $50K, nonprofit was $60K.

My point really isn't diminished a whole lot, considering that KSG is not really indicative of most people in the field anyway.

And don't forget that I am a student at an IR program.

jmleadpipe · February 21, 2007, 11:10pm

As Ari mentioned, he is a student in IR so he doesn't gain anything by talking smack about his own field. The feeling I get, in regards to Aris application process, however, is that he looked at the top programs and found them fairly enticing, but than stepped back, took a look at his future prospects and said "I probably woN,t be making 120K a year, so why should I take out a 70K loan to pay for school?" He ended up at a top program anyways, but one that is WAYYY more affordable than SAIS or KSG.

As I said before, most people will not make big bucks of their IR degrees, which is okay, because there are great jobs in the field that pay alright money and are really enriching at the same time. However, alot of those jobs you don't need a degree from KSG to land.

dallas808 · February 21, 2007, 11:18pm

Are we all trying to say the same subtle point? I happen to believe many IR programs, with the exception of the top ones, may not make sense from the ROI perspective. So buyers beware.

As for jmleadpipe's imaginative scenario, I would like to offer some real world cases which I know personally. I am not affliated with Fletcher/Tufts in any manner. However, I used to share a house with a few Fletcher grad students (MALD) when I was logging my time at Cambridge. One of them is a Fulbright scholar from China who studied sino-american relationships and now trains the next generation of Chinese diplomats in Beijing. Another, an American, did a few undercover-type ops in Middle East for a professor and now works for a MNC in Dubai. Another, a British, was really into international conflict management and now heads one of the UN missions in Africa. As far as I can tell, they are all well compensated (by local domicile standard) and never regret taking the loan. In fact, it was Fletcher that made it possible for them to make the jump careerwise. Are their experience typical by Fletcher standard? I don't know for sure. But in my book, they speak a lot for the school.

Back to my original point, anyone who is seriously thinking about getting into a IR program should talk to the students and alums to make certain that the move makes sense, both financially and careerwise.

UCLAri · February 21, 2007, 11:47pm

dallas808,

Agreed. I do think, however, that your cases are a bit exceptional. Most of us end up in something far less exciting, for better or for worse.

jmleadpipe · February 22, 2007, 12:03am

Dallas,

I refer you again to UCLAri, who is a student at a top IR program. As he said, your friends from Tufts seem to be exceptions to the rule of IR graduates. They also seem to all be fairly talented. Not every IR graduate is a Fulbright scholar, I would imagine...

freemumia · February 28, 2007, 10:11am

Could anyone provide me feedback about my chances of getting into the following schools: KSG, WWS, SAIS, SFS, SIPA

GPA: 3.6 (at top-ranked school) in Poli Sci.
GRE: 800 Q, 710 V, 6 W
Languages: Fluent in Spanish and Japanese (I'm Japanese American)
Experience: Internship with UN during 1 school summer, Study Abroad in Ecuador, Peace Corps in Ecuador in community development, currently working as program assistant at the Foreign Service Institute

I know there are a lot of other factors, but any feedback would be appreciated.

jmleadpipe · February 28, 2007, 1:05pm

Based only on what you have posted here, I would say that you are in great shape for everything but WWS and KSG. Both WWS and KSG seemed to be reserved to people with extensive (like 7+ years) experience in international relations. This usually doesnt mean 7 years of on and off summer internships either. UCLAri, if I'm not mistaken, had stats that are very similar to yours (besides the 800 quant, maybe) and he got into most of the places he applied except KSG and some oither one (maybe SIPA?). I don't remember. Wait for him to log on and he wil break it down for you.

UCLAri · February 28, 2007, 2:11pm

freemumia,

WWS, KSG, and SIPA will all be very very hard. Especially KSG, because they have a serious professional mindset about their degree. SAIS will definitely be doable, as will SFS. However, both value international experience as well.

My recommendation is to apply, and if you are unhappy with the results go work a few years and then reapply.

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Teach me about grad admissions

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