Teacher did not round an 89.913 to a 90

Parents Forum
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<p>This would bug me if it happened to me or my kid. I get it that 89.91 in pure numerical terms would round to a 90. It def depends on the school’s counting policy: If they report on a two decimal standard, it would be 89.91. One decimal standard, 89.9. Whole number standard, 90. It depends on their policy standard. Sounds like they don’t have one in which case the prof gets to do whatever and he did 89.91 and I would be seriously irked but have no standing.</p>

<p>My son had this w a college course he just completed and it boiled down to one missing (though submitted but he isn’t willing to fight it) homework. His GPA ended up a 2.94. The internships he was applying for require a 3.0 and state they round to the nearest tenth. One more .01 and his 2.95 would have been viewed as a 3.0. One missing homework.</p>

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<p>At our school the computer would have rounded it up - and it still would have been a B+. One needs a 92 (91.5) to get an A-.</p>

<p>I’ve been known to bump a student’s grade when they are on the cusp AND are trying/deserving of it. I don’t always tell them about it either. I don’t feel the same way for all students esp if they cause me extra work behaviorally - nor will I bump any down no matter what.</p>

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<p>College professors pretty much have the final say in whether or not they will bump up a final course grade, regardless of what might be written in their course syllabus. Sometimes they will bump up after a student plea, sometimes they will bump up without even being asked, sometimes they won’t bump up even if you beg on your knees and ball your eyes out. That’s just the way it is and I guess in the end it all balances out somehow…</p>

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<p>Still does not leave enough room. Here’s an example: Sharon comes to class most of the time. She comes in and immediately copies the assignment from Nancy. Homework assignments are 25% of the total grade and her homework score is pretty high. She gets her name on each group lab, despite spending a lot of lab time looking at her phone, so her lab scores are also decent. </p>

<p>Her exam and quiz scores are dismal, of course, because she doesn’t learn anything from copying Nancy’s homework. It’s the end of the semester and she sits just at the top of the D+ range. Rounding her grade would bring her to a C-. You decide.</p>

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<p>Nothing wrong with being “people pleasers”. They have better outcome then non-flexible people. How many people like their bosses? You do not mind been a “people pleaser” to keep you job. This is a very valuable lesson our kids have to learn. You have to be a “people pleaser” since you have to be among other people all your life.</p>

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<p>When I taught, I had a participation grade. I would determine that at the very end, after I’d calculated the average on tests and homework, etc. That was my fudge factor. If the average came to 89.9, I would try to use the participation grade to either bump the average up to over 90, or set it lower to be a clear 89. I always had a good sense after spending a semester or year with a kid whether they were an A or a B student. </p>

<p>This was before grades were computerized, and I did the calculations using a calculator. Not sure if grading systems today would let me do this. </p>

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<p>Oldfort, </p>

<p>Echoing Mamalion, those are not what I’d consider “people pleaser” traits, but actions I’d expect from students serious about earning their academic merit in the course of their educational career. </p>

<p>I’m thinking more folks who use social charm and manipulation skills to compensate for one’s perceived/real lacking in those areas of demonstrated academic merit or to gain a higher grade than their performance in those areas would otherwise warrant. </p>

<p>Especially considering class participation is often a sizable portion of one’s final grade.</p>

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<p>Unless one has an unusual instructor, being marked down for class participation only happens when one of following happens:</p>

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<li><p>Student never or seldom participates in class discussion.</p></li>
<li><p>His/her contributions shows strong signs he/she didn’t do most/any of the assigned reading for the class session and/or had nodded off/wasn’t paying attention to the Prof or the class discussion or made remarks indicating such. If other classmates notice this and get annoyed at all this, the instructor would certainly will pick up on it.</p></li>
<li><p>His/her contributions detract from the class discussion due to factors such as manifest disrespect of other students and/or Prof during discussions(i.e. ad hominem attacks) or other factors some Profs I had termed “negative class participation”. And yes, they WILL DEDUCT class participation points for doing so up to the point of awarding 0% for the class participation portion of one’s grade. </p></li>
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<p>In short, one would almost need to go out of his/her way to screw up to earn a deduction or a complete 0% in one’s class participation grade.</p>

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<p>@cobrat - You are speaking for the schools and classes you have attended, or students you have known or instructed. I would not assume that this is universally the case. </p>

<p>My child was marked down for class participation in a situation where she did the readings and showed up for class and review sessions and participated, probably at an “average” level, in class discussions and study groups. (I asked, and she is honest about these sorts of things.) Also, she has a history of being regarded as a courteous student with excellent social skills and almost certainly did not engage in the type of rude behavior you describe. </p>

<p>A complete zero would have resulted in a grade lower than a B; this was apparently just enough of a deduction to lower the grade from an A to a B+. I asked if she had been given an explanation for why she had gotten a deduction for class participation, and she said there had not been any explanation. Perhaps “average” participation in class discussions, in this instance, meant a 75?</p>

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<p>With regard to class participation, I am reminded of a remark that one of T. S. Eliot’s professors made about his contribution to the class, something along the lines of “His comment was so good that one longed for another.”</p>

<p>Class participation scores may particularly hurt young women, of the type mentioned by nervous mom. Aside from the issues that nervous mom raised, The New York Times carried a report that when Harvard Business School hired note-takers to record comments made in class, the class participation scores of the women shot up noticeably. Apparently, they <em>were</em> participating, but the women’s comments tended to be forgotten, in the absence of the hard, written evidence.</p>

<p>Class participation scores also favor self-confident, outspoken types. I don’t really view classes as community events to which student contributions are essential. I know this goes against the grain of current pedagogical thinking . . . but I never grade on class participation in university science classes, nor do any of the other faculty I know. The humanities and social sciences operate on a different model, I would guess.</p>

<p>One of QMP’s history teachers ran an online forum where students could post responses to a set of questions for discussion. I think that this is a great way for shyer students to contribute to the discussion, and also for those who are more deliberative to be able to take the time they would like, to formulate their thoughts on a topic.</p>

<p>One of the worst examples that I know of punitive use of “class participation” scores occurred in a class in the local high school, where a student fell asleep one morning during class, and lost all of the class participation points for the entire 9 weeks (15 to 20% of the mark). In the olden days, I do not recall anyone falling asleep in classes, when I was a high school student. But due to extreme overload, this does happen now–and locally, more often than I would have ever guessed. </p>

<p>I have real sympathy for students who would like to be awake, but who just cannot manage it in a particular case. This happened to me once at a conference. The combination of jet lag and food poisoning the night before made it impossible for me to stay awake during one of the talks, even though I very sincerely wanted to be awake. </p>

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<p>There will always be a cutoff and the teacher or school gets to decide how to handle rounding. Our district report GPA to 2 significant figures so this would be a 89.91, not a 90.00. Of course there is not much difference between an 89.9 and a 90 but there really is not much difference between an 89.5 and 90 either. I still recall how one geology professor gave out no As in a class, although several of us had scores over 89.5 but nobody quite managed a 90. No rounding and no curving in that class! </p>

<p>I agree with QM on the class participation. It really favors kids that are self confident and outspoken. One of my kids had a history class in which the teacher spent a lot of time talking about his own opinions on current events, which were very different than my son’s. My son was not confident enough to challenge him and felt like it woudl be pointless to try. I have heard that the teacher welcomed that sort of challenge, but did not happen in that class. Another son is very comfortable speaking out in class, which really made him well-liked by his teachers (although he was the one that would not always do the homework). Teachers need to make an effort to draw out the reticent student, who may have a lot to add if called upon.</p>

<p>OTOH, one kid I know was dropped by an entire grade in a college class because he did not show up to class often enough. The teacher had the notes and possible even taped lectures online, but coming to class was required and told to the students up front. Seems valid, but somewhat harsh, to drop the grade that much. There is value in going to class and participating, especially at the college level. Learning to speak up is an important skill for most jobs. </p>

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<p>If she is copying assignments, I would round down from the D+ to an F.</p>

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<p>How do you evaluate the effectiveness of the tutoring?</p>

<p>For instance, I know grad students who are brilliant at the material and are brilliant at explaining it to grad students and above, but may not be nearly as good as explaining the material to a Freshman. Would they get a lower grade than someone who can explain things to a Freshman, but didn’t know the material well enough to discuss it with a grad student? Are you teaching a course in teaching or in math?</p>

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<p>How do your tests prevent someone from succeeding without participation in the learning process? </p>

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Students are encouraged to work together, form study groups, etc. It’s not as easy to simply decree that they copied without actually “working” on it as you might think. You gave Sharon an F and she just went to the Department Chair with her stack of homework and exams and the calculated percentage that puts her at D+. Her parents are enraged and have called in their team of lawyers. You can’t PROVE that she copied Nancy’s homework. The Chair politely informs you that you have to give her the grade indicated by the numbers. </p>

<p>The point is that there are a lot of gray areas when it comes to grading. And it isn’t a matter of being petty on the part of the professor. A lower grade might mean not making the GPA needed for satisfactory academic progress, or the GPA needed to keep a scholarship, or the grade needed to have the course accepted by your program. Students are often unhappy with their outcomes - and just as often they blame the professors. </p>

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<p>Well, since you said she was copying, I assumed that the teacher knew that and caught her in the act.
If that is not true. then I am fine giving her the D+</p>

<p>I then politely inform the Chair that if they don’t care about cheating, then I won’t bother to care either.</p>

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<p>Gee, Fluffy2017, I know it is hard to understand the complexity of teaching and grading in the contemporary university, but it is a sick society that pretends it can evaluate knowledge on tests, especially if it emphasizes tests that are easy to grade. There is even a push for computer-scoring writing now, too. I suppose, given the major cut backs on educational spending, it is not surprising that some have fallen into the pattern of believing the world of objective tests is best, but really elite education is not about rounding up or down decimals on tests. It is sad to think that some would see their education in such limited terms, but it is not a surprise because everyday on CC we see people puzzled that a 2400 doesn’t grant entry into elite education.</p>

<p>At the University as opposed to the high school, knowledge creation is valued over information regurgitation. This focus on academic literacy (epistemic literacy or knowledge-forming literacy) requires students to do more than repeat the textbook. They should learn the jargon (technical language), genres (communication forms), and methods of their discipline. None of these things are easy to learn without a fair amount of practice, and learning these basics is only the beginning of disciplinary thinking. If students are to go the next step and use the method, genre, and jargon to create something, then they benefit from the situated, disciplined practice of a classroom, a working group of peers, and opportunities to stretch and attempt new things (even if the new things aren’t successful, the attempted novelty is important). This process doesn’t mean a loudmouth carrying on in class (yuch), but the hard, intellectual work of pushing ideas forward.</p>

<p>I wonder where you are going to school and what is your major (discipline) that you are not learning this.</p>

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There are other ways to know besides catching someone in the act, fluffy. Are you really that naive?<br>

We’re talking about one student in the class tutoring another student in the same class, not a grad student tutoring a freshman. Understanding the material well enough to actually help others in their own understanding shows a higher level grasp of the material. </p>

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<p>In addition to what QM and others have said, another thing to keep in mind is even honest student self-assessments of what is “average” or other levels of work may not match with standards set by the instructor…or even other classmates’ impressions of a given student’s actual performance from seeing it firsthand. </p>

<p>Moreover, most college instructors and many students I was around during my undergrad days would find it odd a classmate only has aspirations for “being average” in an area of academic performance. If a Prof or some classmates finds a student is happy with “average”, that alone may create a negative impression as in higher ed institutions…especially respectable/elite ones would be regarded as setting exceedingly low expectations for oneself. </p>

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<p>Students fell asleep before and were marked down for it or ignored depending on instructor. </p>

<p>Personally, if I was the instructor and a student fell asleep in class, I’d won’t award or punitively deduct for “negative class participation” unless he/she’s doing so in a manner which disturbs the rest of the class…like snoring loudly.</p>

<p>However, many teachers I’ve had…especially those from old-world traditions would regard a student falling asleep in class as a sign of manifest disrespect/gross insubordination for him/her and the class and deduct points from class participation or one’s overall grade accordingly. </p>

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<p>But you said: </p>

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<p>So you are moving the goal posts. Of course there other ways to know - now, which ones are provable? </p>

<p>If you can show to the Chair how you “know” whether it is being caught in the act or other means, then you have a case for why you are rounding down to an F.</p>

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<p>No, not at all. All that it shows is a better ability to teach.</p>

<p>A student in a class who can use simple examples to teach another student doesn’t necessarily have a higher level grasp than a student who is thinking 3 levels above but doesn’t have the interest or patience to explain it to another student who is struggling with the basics.</p>

<p>Don’t tell me that a HS calc teacher has a higher level grasp of calculus than a PhD at MIT because they are able to explain it better to an inexperienced student.</p>

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It shows a higher level grasp than the student they are explaining it to. You are trying to compare apples to frogs here. The student at the 3 levels above will demonstrate that in other ways by mamalion’s metric. She is talking about recognizing when students are at higher levels. She doesn’t say there is only one way to demonstrate that.</p>

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<p>@cobrat - It might have been the case that D did not participate nearly as well as she had thought, but even so it was a surprise to see her grade rounded down with no explanation of how she had fallen short and no opportunity to learn from any mistakes or observed shortcomings. Written exams were returned with numerical grades and written comments.</p>

<p>As for “average”, in this context, I think she meant that she did not see her participation as deficient in quality or quantity compared to others in a highly-motivated and self-selected group clustered around a fairly high bar, not that she wasn’t engaged in the subject matter or trying to do her best.</p>