I didn’t want to hijack the other thread on teacher LOR limits. But I am curious about a couple of things.
I administer several scholarships and most of them require the student to submit a teacher LOR. The students usually all just have guidance pull the one on file from their college applications.
After reading many of these scholarship application packages over the years, it is clear to me that a number of teachers, if not most, use a pretty boilerplate letter. I even caught a couple this year that forgot to change a name in the “find a replace” body of the letter. (The whole letter talked about Susie, Susie this and Susie that but the last sentence said that they “are confident Janie will be an asset to your college.”)
I will definitely talk about this with the guidance department. But the truth is, some of these teachers are asked to write probably 50 or more letters.
If your school limits the # a teacher can write, how do you control that? First come first serve doesn’t quite seem fair if a teacher really thinks a particular student is great but his quota is filled early.
The other part of this is, how much can you rely on these letters. I can’t even read between the lines any more - they all say such similar things, how the student managed to juggle many activities but still give math/science/English his best effort; he showed imagination in the classroom, etc etc. I imagine you could find something nice to say about most kids if you tried hard.
I much prefer LOR from outside the school for my purposes, but I can see how a college may want an academic teacher to comment on the student’s work.
I’m pretty sure that one of my daughter’s LOR’s was instrumental in her admission to her alma mater (a big reach for her). Certainly not the only factor - but this teacher really put effort into the LOR, including a lot of detail & definitely extolling my daughter’s virtues as a student who stood out among others.
I saw the LOR’s written by all the teachers for my kids, and with one exception - none was boilerplate. They each included details that very accurately tied into my kid’s personalities – not just the stuff a teacher would have picked up from an activities list provided by the g.c. They weren’t all as laudatory as the one I described as being instrumental for my daughter – but definitely, they provided info about the students that was consistent with the rest of the application and came across as genuine.
I think that the LOR’s are extremely important for students aiming for reach-level colleges, but it is also fairly uncommon that students (or their parents) actually see the LOR’s.
My kids might have benefited from the fact that the public U’s in California don’t ask for or accept LOR’s as part of the initial application process – so public high school teachers aren’t really deluged with a lot of LOR requests. Plus they were at the type of schools where only 1 or 2 students a year might qualify for Ivy-level admissions – so I think also there was probably a sense of pride among the teachers who were asked to provide those recs.
I can see where it would be a problem in other schools – I guess in one sense, that’s an advantage of being in a good but less competitive public high school. My kids’ schools were supportive and had adequate resources to keep them challenged – and, fortunately, the schools also had some teachers who “got it” about what to put in an LOR.
My guess is that that 95% of the LOR’s colleges see probably fall into that boilerplate category – so your experience is not unique – but if I’m right, then that would make the special LOR’s all the more valuable. I’ve seen at least one other example of such a letter – a very strong LOR written by a teacher for a student with relatively weaker stats, who ended up getting into most of the colleges he applied to, including many with merit offers.
But I do wonder how much unhelpful information is inadvertently conveyed when LOR’s fall short of that mark. It’s the “damned with faint praise” problem.
My daughter went to a smaller HS so had some of the same teachers for multiple years. Teachers were also mentors for many after school activities. She asked the two teachers that knew her super well, both in and out of the classroom, for recommendations. One of those teachers wrote her a LOR for a regional award which he allowed us to read. It literally brought tears to my eyes. It was super specific to my daughter and really talked about her strengths in and out of the classroom. I’m assuming he was able to tweak that same LOR for her college recommendation and if he did, I think it certainly could have moved the needle.
I think at least one of my son’s teacher letters of recommendation may have been important components of his admission to his college. One of his teachers shared their letter, and it was excellent, detailed and specific to our son, and his personality. We didn’t get to see the other teacher’s letter, but our son asked the teacher of a class that he had really struggled in (but ultimately passed with a decent grade).
Think of an LOR bell curve, consisting of a vast undifferentiated middle with a few outliers ranging from: “It is within the realm of possibility that Charles might have learned something had he bothered to complete his assignments;” to: “by leaps and bounds, the most outstanding student in my forty year career.”
The vast majority of LORs are a waste of time, both for the writers and the readers.
I don’t think it matters whether the teacher is a “clever, engaging writer” — but it does matter whether the LOR has enough detail & positive statements which differentiate the student in a meaningful way for the ad com.
Given the amount of time that the admission readers have overall, a specific LOR that is direct and to the point may be more effective. And it’s not the degree of the praise that counts (“most outstanding student in career”) - rather, its all in the details that support the adjectives used.
But I agree that the good LORs are probably outliers. A teacher doesn’t have to be a particularly talented writer to write a good LOR, but the teacher does need to communicate meaningful facts.
@calmom wrote “And it’s not the degree of the praise that counts (“most outstanding student in career”) - rather, its all in the details that support the adjectives used.”
Not according to information released during the Harvard admissions trial:
Letter of Recommendation Rating (where 1 is the highest rating):
Legal filings show the following scoring for “School Support,” with separate ratings for teachers 1, 2, and counselor.
Strikingly unusual support. "The best ever," "one of the best in x years," truly over the top.
Very strong support. "One of the best" or "the best this year."
Above average positive support.
Somewhat neutral or slightly negative.
Negative or worrisome report.
Neither the transcript nor prose is in the folder.
I never saw the LORs for my kids but believe D had amazing letters because she was admitted as a transfer to a U that she was warned by her HS that she was highly unlikely to be admitted at (it was and us a highly competitive private U). I believe the teachers who wrote her LORs really got to know her as the classes at her CC were small (around 20 students) and they were impressed by her determination and drive.
After her 1st semester of CC, she applied to transfer and was admitted despite poor HS grades, one term of great CC grades and some Incompletes in 2nd semester. She was allowed to transfer after completing 3 semesters.
@surfcity Thank you for this “meta” thread. What I took away from the other thread was that many HS teachers were unhappy writing LORs. Hopefully my own son can find teachers like those here in posts #3 and #4.
@calmom wrote “This probably comes as a huge surprise, but the vast majority of students who need LOR’s are applying to schools other than Harvard (or equivalent).”
LOL You’re right! Always thought the IVY’s get 2 million plus apps every year, and then the vast undersea Atlantis conspiracy transports the excess applications to the league of UU’s (Undersea Universities).
Regardless, Harvard’s is the only published information I’ve seen on any college giving specific detail on the rubric the admissions readers use to evaluate LORs.
Whether, and to what extent, other institutions use rubrics similar to Harvard’s is certainly open to debate, but the practical imperative of needing to reduce a LOR to a numerical ranking so that thousands of students can be sorted suggests that many, if not most institutions would need to use a similar rubric.
Whether we should believe that the rubric is based on “level of support” as at Harvard, or “extent to which writer provides details to support the adjectives used,” as you suggest - I think stands on the question of whether the schools are looking to rank the students, or the letter writers abilities. Harvard’s rubric, as simplistic as it may seem, does distill down to how strong (or weak) the LOR writer’s endorsement of the student is. Gauging the quality of fact based writing gets further away from the student and tilts more towards evaluating the writer.
@damon30 you’re welcome I really was more interested in the experience for more typical students. Obviously CC is going to have more kids who really were exceptional and could be labeled as “one of the best in my career in teaching” but let’s be realistic. MOST kids will not be that extraordinary.
So what is a LOR to say for your average B+/A- hard-working-but-not-exceptional student? Not every student will being some creative, unique presence to a college. And that is okay IMHO!
That is why I think a lot of the LOR I read were sort of boilerplate. Basically they were saying, he is a good kid, does his work, isn’t a troublemaker, will succeed at your school.
I am still curious how other schools control the # of LOR any particular teacher writes.
As university faculty, I write letters, 100s and 1000s for UG students, G students, and other faculty. I can usually tell if the letter will matter by the person and position applied for before I start. Maybe I am wrong sometimes, but not often.
Some occasions are pretty boilerplate. The request is only formal, a box to check. Other times the applicant is a good match to the position. So the letter just has to be accurate. Sometimes, however, letters really can make a difference if they are eloquent and revealing: Occasions when the competition is tough or there are hidden strengths or visible weaknesses to address. A good student letter, one that counts, can take an hour or more to write. I can see why HS teachers have to limit the number. I always will write for a student, but do limit tenure letters as they can take days.
My daughter seemed to have chosen the right people to write her LOR’s. We will never get to read them, but I’m certain that they had an impact on her applications and admission to a range of colleges including several reaches. She was dogged in pursuit of her high school education and she made an impression on some of her teachers. I’m very grateful for their support and kind words.
My wife is in higher education and often writes LOR’s for her students for graduate or law school. Some who ask for a letters, have only taken a few classes with her, others she got to know well. Guess which letter is easier for her to write? She still remembers each of the handful of students who she found to be brilliant and passionate and is feels fortunate to have taught them.
My daughter and I never saw her LOR, but we are both convinced it must have been critical (along with her own essays) in getting her accepted at her first choice college - unhooked applicant with 25th percentile stats. She asked a teacher she had had for over a year, in a class she loved, did well in and was an active participant in.
If each Ivy got 40k apps, times 8 that’s 320,000, not 2 million. But the point stands that there’s no time to try to overinterpret a blah letter. It’s also important to choose writers from the right disciplines.
The letter should somewhat match how the kid presented himself in the rest. In that respect, calling a kid Janie when she’s Susie isn’t as bad as regaling about Janie’s attributes and successes and losing who Susie really is.
About two thirds of colleges use recommendations. Seems like most of them are not so highly selective that they get many applicants who are so exceptional to merit an exceptional recommendation (and such applicants are likely to be easy admits by other criteria), so if they dropped the requirement for recommendations, they would reduce the uncompensated work they give to teachers and counselors. The teachers and counselors can then concentrate on fewer recommendations for more exceptional students, and be less likely to need to ration recommendations.
At a private college’s info session that we attended this week, the admissions rep stressed the importance of LORs in their application process. The advice was similar to the other thread - start approaching teachers from whom you’d like to request LORs.
This talk of LORs reminded me of my older kid who asked her private coach to write a letter for an honors scholarship application. He asked for some basic academic info so she gave him her resume. He gave her the letter to review instead of sealing it in an envelope. She looked at it and was appalled. He had basically written to her resume and said little to nothing about her growth in her sport (for which she was also being recruited by colleges.) She chose to toss it and submit two teacher LORs and got the full ride.
I really was more interested in the experience for more typical students. Obviously CC is going to have more kids who really were exceptional and could be labeled as “one of the best in my career in teaching” but let’s be realistic. MOST kids will not be that extraordinary.