Where do you think the cut off is? Should the median prep school kid be given preference over a top 10% public school kid?
Before you leap to an inaccurate conclusion I am not sure how I feel about tests. My kid had plenty of resources to prepare 4 years ago and landed a 36 on the ACT in one seating. I am sure it didn’t hurt his chance to gain admission to his current school. So personally we benefited from standardized tests.
That said do I think it fair. Probably not. Many of the kids at his school had the resources and didn’t have to work jobs etc such that I would expect their test scores to be skewed higher.
I think your supposition wrong as most prep school kids tend to benefit from standardized tests.
So I am personally up in the air as to the extent of the insight they provide. On one level I think they can help differentiate amongst students of similar means and resources but likely are biased to benefit student of greater socio economic means.
Generally however prep school kids will tend to like exams that they have greater resources and time to prepare for contrary to your conclusion.
Lastly I am not a prep school defender (false narrative) I simply provided actual data (grade distributions) versus your self described “unscientific”extrapolation regarding grade inflation. I assume that means you are now acknowledging the accuracy of the data I provided.
Here is Trinity in NYC (the most inflated I could find) once again suggesting a 4.0 pretty tough contrary to your comments previously and extremely strong test scores.
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I won’t be painted into an adversarial corner as I already answered…
“Simply put it depends on the college, prep school, individual student and circumstances”.
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The Horace Mann profile I was referencing is at https://www.horacemann.org/uploaded/HoraceMann/PDFs/College_Counseling/HM_School_Profile_2018-19.pdf (I mentioned choosing class of 2019 in posts). The Horace Mann profile page literally states “A”, “A-”, and “B+” in the 2nd column and percentage in the 3rd column. I used the percentage that Horace Mann states for the grade that Horace Mann states. There is direct copy from the profile page with no “averaging down.” The full percentages listed on the linked Horace Mann profile page is below. Median is clearly B+. You can argue with Horace Mann that they are converting grades to their 4.3 GPA scale wrong if you want, but that’s a different issue.
A+ = 0%
A = 4%
A- = 32%
B+ = 37%
B = 18%
B- = 6%
C+ = 2%
C = 2%
C- = 0%
Not agreeing with you that it is easy and common to get a A/4.0 GPA at highly selective prep schools mean you are a prep school defender? If you look at my previous postings about prep schools, I don’t think that’s how forum members would describe my posts.
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There is variability of grading among the well known boarding schools. I am not sure you are familiar with Deerfield’s “Mr 89” @Data10. So, with all due respect, I can assure you that the majority of students at DA are not ( as you claim) earning above 94. If you want to data from recent years, here it is and 
Merry Christmas 
DA, Hotchkiss, Choate, Taft:
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First, IMO it is a inaccurate to assume that those who try to explain prep school admissions are prep school “defenders.”
Second, based on my my experience, I can tell you with confidence that no such correlation exists. If anything, most of these parents are just like you and others who are upset by TO and TB policies. They feel like their kids are being wronged because their kid’s stellar test scores aren’t being weighed more heavily. They see spots going to kids who scored hundreds of points less than their child, and they don’t like it one bit.
I’ve asked you before but you haven’t answered:
From a self-interest perspective, why would those who do very well on test scores oppose their use?
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Please re-read my post. My post stated the median grade at Deerfield was B+, and 10% earned of students had a >93% average. It certainly did not state that the majority of students earn >94%.
I see that you reported 6% of students had >93%, while I reported 10% of students had >93%. This difference occurs because I used a class of 2019 reference (as stated in post), while you used class of 2021.
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Your initial comment I was responding to was…
“If a kid from a wealthy school or a prep school wants to go to T10 school in 2022, they should get a 4.0 given how easy it is to do that today.”
You seem to be moving the bar. The fact that only 4% in the Horace Mann example achieve a 4.0 gpa contradicts that statement. The fact that the balance of students is roughly split 1/3 A-, 1/3 B+ and 1/3 B or lower contradicts conspiracy theories of “rampant” grade inflation at preps that you have suggested.
Here is another prep Roxbury Latin, that is known for sending kids to Ivies and attracting socio economically disadvantaged kids…
I recognize I (and @Golfgr8) are just pulling individual schools and this might not be a universal truth but please show me the top prep where a 4.0 as you suggest is “easy”.
Not looking to debate just want to see the schools you are referencing as it is not my experience nor what I am seeing factually.
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Do you think it is easier or harder to get a 4.0 today than it was 10 or 20 years?
If there were 4 major criteria for acceptance: GPA, “rigor” of high school classes, ECs, and tests, and 3 of those criteria are 100% within the control of the wealthy schools, why not just get rid of the 4th criteria?
As I have previously described depends on the school, individual, curriculum and circumstances but there is clearly more emphasis today on numeric criteria and achievement. Don’t know if it is “easier” or kids are just working harder and being encouraged by educators and society to do so.
Now that I have answered your question please direct me to the prep school where it is easy to get a 4.0? So far it appears to be mythical. If you can’t offer one no biggie it is just that you referenced it as being the current norm.
Up thread you mentioned prep school “supporters” which I assume makes you a prep school antagonist. Not sure why someone would be so polarized in a view among such varied schools and experiences.
My father was a public school teacher for 27 years while I attended Exeter on a highly subsidized basis. My dad encouraged me to take the opportunity when offered. The experience was life changing given our families limited financial resources and my lack of prior exposure to so many opportunities and experiences that Exeter offered a window into. I value and appreciate both private and public education having had positive personal experiences with both and recognize the uniqueness of each school and student. I once again respect your opinion but disagree with your making blanket statements.
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But these prep schools do control the test scores. They selectively admit students who excel at (among other things) taking standardized tests. An easy way to control output is to control input, and that is what is happening at these schools.
That’s why the average SAT score at the school I’ve discussed is around a 1470, which is top 1-2%, and my guess is that the average test scores are comparable or higher at the schools @Data10 and @Catcherinthetoast have mentioned. As for the high income publics, the “control” is less obvious, but these schools are nonetheless enrolling students who perform much better at standardized tests. And their kids score substantially higher than kids at less wealthy schools.
So how is getting rid of test scores going to benefit schools where the average test score is in the top 1-2%?
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I answered the 4.0 question at least twice, and you are taking my original statement out of context.
As an FYI, while not from wealth myself, I grew up in an upper middle class town that sent about 15-20% of each graduating class to T20 schools or top LACs of that era, and virtually everyone from my graduating class went to college somewhere. To be honest, there was no reason to go to a prep from a town like mine, and the kids who did usually had been struggling in the town’s high school. I am well aware of the privilege I had growing up in an environment like that. Going to a state flagship was an eye opener for me on what others had to do to get a college education. I also have an MBA from one of the top business schools and have spent my career in corporate finance and capital markets.
Plenty of my friends have college age kids that went through prep or live in wealthy suburbs. For the kids that are top students, the only part they worry about is the SAT/ACT, because that is the one part of the application they can’t control. TO lets them off the hook. As someone who has spent most of my life on the “inside” of privilege, I think it is silly to single out ACTs/SATs as the only source of unfairness in admissions.
I went back and looked and couldn’t find the specific prep school where getting a 4.0 is easy. Do you mind repeating the schools names or directing me to the post. Rather then generalize I would prefer to look at a specific schools profile such that you extrapolate from.
And thank you for sharing your first hand experience with prep schools for context.
This is turning into a thread hijack. Moving on.
Reading threads on the other board about ED results….read that Williams accepted 60% of their ED group who did not submit tests.
It will be interesting to see more results (not just number of kids who applied without submitting).
For test optional colleges, their median test scores will rise, which in turn discourage more applicants whose scores are below this year’s median from submitting test scores next year. This means on average fewer applicants next year will submit their test scores, and fewer still the following year, and so on. It’s another self-reinforcing spiral in college admissions.
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I wonder how soon we will start seeing 25%-75% 1600-1600!
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Standardized testing will become history even sooner. The demand for these tests will drop every year as more applicants choose not to submit. The economics of standardized testing will become unsustainable. Even the students who want to be tested won’t have the option at some point.
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I know of one school who is using the class of 2021 as a test case. They are reviewing the academic performance of students who submitted test scores vs those who did not to see if there is any notable difference between these groups. This will inform their testing policy going forward. I am sure many schools are doing the same thing.
I am not trying to start a debate as to what they will find. I just found it kind of interesting that the admissions folks thought there actually may be a significant enough difference to spend the time studying it.
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