Texas parents -- new class rank legislation

giddey_up · July 4, 2008, 1:42pm

xig, I have no doubt of the intent of the Texas Legislature, that was not my question. I want to know when the administration of the University of Texas ever set a geographical diversity goal - and why you think they would set one in the absence of the 10% law.

We all know that that the law is kept in place by the tyranny of the majority in the Texas legislature. This is accomplished on the backs of students from competitive suburban schools. Here is how the top ten feeder schools from 1996 fared in 2007:

School_____________________19962007DeltaReduction
PLANO SR HS____________143707351%
WESTLAKE AUSTIN______101693232%
CLEMENTS SUGAR LAND___98564243%
BELLAIRE_______________94613335%
KINGWOOD___________________ 72_442839%
CLEAR LAKE____________69521725%
AUSTIN_________________67422537%
CHURCHILL SAN ANTONIO_66382842%
WESTWOOD AUSTIN_____6272-10-16%
MEMORIAL HOUSTON______61451626%

prefect · July 4, 2008, 1:54pm

giddeyup, are those numbers accepted or attending?

xiggi · July 4, 2008, 2:46pm

[quote]
giddeyup, are those numbers accepted or attending?

[/quote]

I can tell you that the statistics kept by UT show the numbers of enrolled students.

By the way, here is a report that covers the first three years of HB 588

Admissions</a> Research: Diversity of Feeder Schools - UT Austin

[quote]
Abstract

The following is a partial assessment of the Top Ten Percent higher education admissions policy enacted into law in 1997. This study examines the change in the makeup of high schools sending students to the University of Texas at Austin. Looking only at the UT-Austin in the period between 1996 and 2000, this study finds that:

(1) in 2000, as in 1996, the distribution of the entering class at UT-Austin is highly skewed, with a relatively small of number of schools contributing nearly half of the entering class;

(2) nonetheless, some change is evident, and the number of high schools sending students to UT-Austin increased from 622 in 1996 to 792 in 2000, or a 27.3% increase; most of the increase occurred among high schools that sent low numbers, indicating greater access to the UT flagship school;

(4) a closer look at the new senders reveal that they come from seventy-one counties across Texas, with East and Northeast Texas prominently represented;
(5) a profile of the new senders uncovers two distinct clusters of inner-city minority high schools in Dallas-Ft. Worth, Houston and San Antonio, and rural white high schools in East and Northeast Texas; and there is also a suggestion of a third cluster of minority and mixed rural schools in West and South Texas.

In short, after three years the Top Ten Percent law appears to have broadened, in a modest way, the high school sending or feeding pattern to UT-Austin. And it has done so in a way that benefits all regions of the State. This preliminary look at the new senders suggest that the law has made the State flagship university more accessible to the best high school students, regardless of race, economic standing or residence. In so doing, the Ten Percent law has helped ensure that the diversity of the State is reflected at UT-Austin.

[/quote]

giddey_up · July 4, 2008, 2:46pm

These are attending freshman. Here is the link to the stats:
Admissions</a> Research: Texas Feeder Schools - UT Austin

They have them for all Texas High Schools, and it is very interesting to see how their representation has changed over the past 10 years.

xiggi · July 4, 2008, 2:50pm

Admissions</a> Research: Texas Feeder Schools - UT Austin

In this study an enrolled student is one who enrolled in classes during the fall semester or enrolled during the summer and re-enrolled in the fall. This is the Integrated Postsecondary Education Data System (IPEDS) definition of ntering
freshman.

In 2007, the students listed by schools accounted for a total of 6886.

Fwiw, in addition to the numbers posted by Giddey, should we look at how one wealthy suburb fares in comparison to an entire city:

2445565 PLANO HIGH SCHOOL PLANO 70
2445569 PLANO EAST SENIOR HIGH SCHOOL PLANO 54
2445573 PLANO WEST SENIOR HIGH SCHOOL PLANO 74

2442194 AMERICAS HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 11
2442195 EL DORADO HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 7
2442198 ANDRESS HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 1
2442199 BEL AIR HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 4
2442200 BOWIE HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 3
2442205 BURGES HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 1
2442208 CAPTAIN JOHN L. CHAPIN HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 7
2442210 CATHEDRAL HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 5
2442212 CORONADO HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 11
2442214 DEL VALLE HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 12
2442215 FRANKLIN HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 16
2442217 EASTWOOD HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 10
2442220 EL PASO HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 5
2442223 IRVIN HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 4
2442224 J.M. HANKS HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 10
2442230 LORETTO ACADEMY EL PASO 2
2442231 MOUNTAIN VIEW JR-SR HIGH SCH EL PASO 2
2442238 PARKLAND HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 1
2442241 MONTWOOD HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 8
2442242 RIVERSIDE HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 1
2442243 MAXINE L SILVA HEALTH MAGNET EL PASO 2
2442247 SOCORRO HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 9
2442250 AUSTIN HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 2
2442261 IMMANUEL BAPTIST CHRISTIAN SCHOOL EL PASO 1
2442263 HORIZON HIGH SCHOOL EL PASO 1

Youdon_tsay · July 4, 2008, 2:54pm

Interesting stuff, g.up. I wish I had more time to study it, but a quick look shows son's school had about a 50% reduction in six years (from 2001-2007).

xiggi · July 4, 2008, 3:20pm

[quote]
They have them for all Texas High Schools, and it is very interesting to see how their representation has changed over the past 10 years.

[/quote]

It would be interesting IF and only IF we'd be able to ascertain the ratio of admitted students versus enrolled students. For instance, we can assume that Plano East "earns" as many as 120 automatic spots. Knowing that 50 to 70 end up attending in 2007 (as opposed to double that in 1998) does not lead to very valuable conclusions without further analyses.

One of the biggest complains from UT admissions is that the most competitive schools end up "collecting" admissions but foregoing admissions. For instance, it is typical for a NON-RANKING school such as St. Marks in Dallas to collect 20 to 30 admissions but only send 5 students who are typically accepted in the Austin's business or Honor colleges. The only time the number of enrolled students increase is when a particular year is "weaker" and does not send its students to highly selective schools in the same manner as in prior years.

To derive meaningful conclusions one needs to know why students at Highland Park or Plano do NOT use their automatic ticket and compare it to the reasons at schools such as the ones listed in El Paso. In the meantime, it's easy to see how under-represented a city such as El Paso remains in comparison to larger urban areas. Simply stated, students El Paso do NOT use their automatic admissions as much as richer cities. That is why local students tend to attend UTEP or UTSA and forego their Austin admission. Fewer students do that in Plano ... and fewer would do it if the 10% would be 15% or 20%.

Dbate · July 7, 2008, 2:54am

That darn Clements they are down the street from us, and i don't like them they are our rivals, it is kinda unbalanced really, bc both Austin and Clements are in our district. And the schools listed really represent the problem at about everything wealthy ppl do better science fair, school, SAT. This rule is just a check so that those darn rich Clements types don't get to go. That darn Clements, think they're better than us. but anyway at my school Asians actually leave to go to Clements bc there are more Asians there. But they are the ones who are at the very top.

Dbate · July 7, 2008, 2:57am

Really, these ppl that go to public high schools should not complain. I am in a relatively competitive district, seeing as how we have two of the top ten high schools in the state of Texas. Austin and Clements, it is really not that hard. I wanted to do well and i started in eigth grade. Everyone needs to know what it takes, if you want UT then you need to start work early. Otherwise don't complain

ignatius · July 7, 2008, 9:12am

xiggi: One of the biggest complains from UT admissions is that the most competitive schools end up "collecting" admissions but foregoing admissions. For instance, it is typical for a NON-RANKING school such as St. Marks in Dallas to collect 20 to 30 admissions but only send 5 students who are typically accepted in the Austin's business or Honor colleges. The only time the number of enrolled students increase is when a particular year is "weaker" and does not send its students to highly selective schools in the same manner as in prior years.

`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
True in that the top 10% in the most competitive schools end up "collecting" admissions but choosing to go elsewhere - BUT INCORRECT on the INFO re non-ranking schools. My son went to a non-ranking school and I don't know whether or not he was in the top 10%, but the gc told us that it was not relevant - except for UT and only UT. Non-ranking schools obviously rank internally - just refuse to allow it to be an admissions factor. Anyway, UT is the one exception and the rank HAS TO BE SUBMITTED. Since my son was not interested in UT, ranking was not a factor, but I've since wondered what the students interested in UT were told about rank. Private schools are hurt by the 10% rule because of small class size - 200 kids and only 20 in the top 10% and as xiggi says many of the top are looking beyond UT. Those really strong students right below the top 10% are the ones most interested, yet hit hard by the law.

Anyway, son graduated in 2007 from a St. Mark's type school in Houston and that info regarding UT app is directly from an excellent gc.

xiggi · July 7, 2008, 1:36pm

[quote]
BUT INCORRECT on the INFO re non-ranking schools. My son went to a non-ranking school and I don't know whether or not he was in the top 10%, but the gc told us that it was not relevant - except for UT and only UT. Non-ranking schools obviously rank internally - just refuse to allow it to be an admissions factor. Anyway, UT is the one exception and the rank HAS TO BE SUBMITTED. Since my son was not interested in UT, ranking was not a factor, but I've since wondered what the students interested in UT were told about rank.

[/quote]

Admissions officers are pretty clear about the ranking. To be used for the automatic admission at Texas schools, the ranking has to be official and available to every senior. Schools that do not have an official ranking or rank later during the senior are precluding their students to gain direct admission in the fall of their senior year.

It's not really that complicated. If a student asks an official ranking at the start of his senior year, and the school claims not to be ranking at that time, it means that UT (or other Texas schools) are simply unable to use the ranking at that school. The automatic admission is not a subjective issue that can be decided whimsically by GC or admission officers ... it has a legal foundation.

ignatius · July 7, 2008, 1:58pm

The point is that NON-RANKING schools actually do rank; the information regarding rank is only sent on a has-to-be-sent basis - UT top 10%. It has do with the way the school "doesn't rank". You are right in that it has to be official, and I assume that the students that applied to UT were told whether or not the top 10% applied to them individually. Regardless of how it's worded, my son's non-ranking school let UT-Austin know which students were in the top 10%, because, as you said, it is the law. My s was on the cusp of the top 10% and I honestly can't tell which side of the line he fell on since he didn't apply to UT.

But don't say that students from non-ranking schools can just apply willy-nilly to UT (i.e. the statement re St. Mark's). Class rank is a requisite that "non-ranking" schools fulfill if the student applies to UT.

My d is currently in the top 20% in a private hs. Beyond that, I can't tell you much about her rank and I can guarantee that she can't ask and get a more specific number easily. Her official ranking is top 20% - nice and official. (I think that she is probably pretty near the top 10% line and it might be interesting to see how hard it is to get that info. I know a dad who wanted specifics last year and was given a merry run-around.)

curmudgeon · July 7, 2008, 2:57pm

Lord knows they don't get enough attention and advantages already. Keep fighting the good fight. Give peace a chance. We shall overcome. :)

As I have said more times than I can count, the system is doing what the system was designed to do. It's not going anywhere (may be modified) nor IMO should it. If the UT system wants to change the numbers offer us something from the ginormous cache of cash, the PUF. Do this - everyone in the top 10% goes to Tech, U of H, SFA, UTEP for free tuition. They'll be plenty of room for Biff and Buffy in Austin and more importantly for some , you could swing a dead cat at UT and never hit a poor person, wouldn't that be swell? ;)

ignatius · July 7, 2008, 3:06pm

I don't think the law meant for the top 10% to all choose UT. (Yes, I know that is an exaggeration.) Therein lies the problem. SFA, U of H, Lamar U and so many others are all good schools and shouldn't be relegated to the:

"If the UT system wants to change the numbers offer us something from the ginormous cache of cash, the PUF. Do this - everyone in the top 10% goes to Tech, U of H, SFA, UTEP for free tuition."

... catagory like jokes.

MidwestMom2Kids_1 · July 7, 2008, 3:46pm

It sound like the vast majority of the top 10% choose either UT or Texas A&M, though, right?

mini · July 7, 2008, 4:53pm

"They'll be plenty of room for Biff and Buffy in Austin and more importantly for some , you could swing a dead cat at UT and never hit a poor person, wouldn't that be swell?"

I was thinkin' they should have a separate campus (and definitely different dining facilities) for Biff and Buffy so they shouldn't have to mix with the riff/raff. Oh, wait, I think they call them fraternities and sororities. (awaiting the brickbats....:rolleyes:)

Alternatively, Biff and Buffy could transfer to some of them there inner city high schools and take advantage of their "preferential admissions". ;)

missypie · July 7, 2008, 4:58pm

Y'all are taking this a bit too far. My kids attend what is called a "wealthy suburban high school." One day day we'll drive the kids to a birthday party and pull up to the house and say "wow"...the next day we'll see one of their classmates working at Target 30 hours a week during the school year to help his family make ends meet. By no means are all or even nearly all of the kids at the "wealthy" high schools wealthy. Money was a very large factor in pretty much all of my son's friends college decisions.

giddey_up · July 7, 2008, 6:03pm

Mini says:"Alternatively, Biff and Buffy could transfer to some of them there inner city high schools and take advantage of their "preferential admissions".

You think you're joking, don't you?

mini · July 7, 2008, 6:44pm

Not in the least. Many parents will do almost anything to get ahead. Even mix with the riff-raff. (They can always have separate tables for lunch.) More power to 'em. ;)

dragonmom · July 7, 2008, 7:13pm

[quote]
It sound like the vast majority of the top 10% choose either UT or Texas A&M, though, right?

[/quote]

Nope, at my kid's school not even half. The top kids focus on national "tippy-top-tier" schools or go for more generous merit aid at Oklahoma or Baylor. Plenty still want to go to UT or A&M, but "vast majority" it is not.

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