The Academies’ March Toward Mediocrity - Prof Fleming Op-Ed

<p>Excellent post, Mike. </p>

<p>Professor Flemming takes a lot of heat, but he provides a lot of evidence. Some outraged alum, parents, and other blindly loyal USNA supporters summarily dismiss his every statement due to their own bias, rather than listening to him and seeing the same fires he sees. THe fires need to be put out, not ignored by shooting the messenger.</p>

<p>[ul]
[li]Admissions (through high profile money generating D1 athletics) is causing the problems.</p>[/li]
<p>[li]Professor Fleming is identifying the problems but not solving them.</p>[/li]
<p>[li]Most and alumni and almost all parents are ignoring the problems exist at all.[/li][/ul]</p>

<p><a href=“An%20aside:%20Funny%20that%20Luigi%20posted%20the%20article;%20the%20USCGA%20is%20getting%20scrutiny%20because%20of%20the%20apparent%20lack%20of%20diversity%20when%20compared%20to%20the%20other%20federal%20academies.”>quote=USNA84</a>

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<p>(FYI - USCGA is under MAJOR scrutiny by Congress for their lack of success enrolling URM cadets. Just because the criticism coming at them is not coming from a tenured professor doesn’t decrease the heat at all. Rep. Cummings controls the money, and he is steering their admission system toward a nomination process that he believes will increase the percentage of URM at CGA by forcing geographic representation, rather than using the CGA admissions method of increasing awareness in the URM community and getting more minority students to apply.)</p>

<p>:cool:</p>

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Absolutely. Not only that - USCGA is doing something about it. They have been very actively ‘recruiting’ women as well as minorities for a number of years now. Including having some very special admissions programs open to female candidates only.<br>
I am at a loss to figure out why folks find this okay but when USNA goes out of their way to present the opportunites to really bright kids with fewer resources than others - they get slammed. </p>

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Two things - USNA is America’s academy - it is and should be open to young from across the country. Those who know anything about our educational system know that not all students have the same educational opportunities. It’s difficult to compare the opportunities available in public high schools in NoVa to those in rural Mississippi. This is the reason Congress designed the Nomination system of selection. When no candidates from a congressional district are appointed then the Academy may appoint another candidate in place of - and the balance tips. IMO - the academies have a duty to spread the word and attract students from a broad section of America. Otherwise, USNA becomes a free “Harvard” that you can pay for by driving a ship for 5 years. </p>

<p>Secondly - Where did the “best and brightest” come from and why is this defined by SAT scores? I thought the goal was to admit those with great potential to become leaders in the Navy.</p>

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<p>If that was indeed what was happening, there wouldn’t be such a “slam.” </p>

<p>But that’s not what is happening - a current BGO just stated above (confirming Professor Fleming’s assertions):</p>

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<p>He gives you more evidence, confirming the same things stated by Professor Fleming, yet you think that’s OK? You think that “the best and brightest” were selected, when this BGO is telling you differently?</p>

<p>Mike- excellent points.</p>

<p>As an FYI- </p>

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<p>JAMO4:</p>

<p>The academies (all of them, BTW) believe that SAT’s/ACT’s indicate academic potential, as does class standing, strength of high school (as measured by a number of factors), participating in competitive sports, extracurriculars, etc.</p>

<p>The “nice” thing about SAT/ACT scores is at least you have some universal method of measuring all candidates against each other. I’m not going to defend their value or that they are always a predictor of academic potential or leadership potential. We all know people who scored perfect 800’s who “couldn’t lead ants to a picnic”. </p>

<p>I’m just saying that they are used to determine - at least initially - whether someone gets a candidate number at USNA. No candidate number means the application stops there. My empirical observations over the past five years lead me to believe that when someone checks the race/ethnicity blocks as something other than “Caucasian” the acceptable minimum scores for getting a candidate number go lower. Caucasian women do not necessarily get that break, either, BTW. They are not considered underrepresented at USNA any longer.</p>

<p>Concur with your comments about small states vs. big states and the “forced distribution” of appointments by state and congressional district. I came from a small state myself, and only God knows whether I would have been competitive for appointment if I were from Virginia, New York, Texas, California, etc. Fully qualified principal nominees who are triple qualified must be appointed, irrespective of whether there are “better” qualified candidates who weren’t as competitive in their peer groups in other states. </p>

<p>Is that truly fair, and to your question “Are we getting the best and brightest?” I would say, “Yes, we are getting the best and brightest from THAT state/district, but if it were completely about merit, we’d probably have classes made up almost entirely of students from the larger states and cities. Also, the forced distribution is law under Title X, US Code. There is nothing in the law that says we must have a class with a certain demographic profile - that is driven entirely by academy admissions and Big Navy.”</p>

<p>What plagues my conscience is to see kids competing in the same district where we seem to give race/ethnicity/sports talent a bigger share of the appointment equation than overall merit, and to see those kids with better academic and leadership potential denied the opportunity to attend and serve because they don’t fit a desired demographic profile. The enemy doesn’t care what color you are; war is an equal opportunity crucible. If you aren’t putting your best people out there, you may not like the results you get. Again, I am not saying that the people appointed are not capable because of their color or gender, I’d just like to see the entire process color blind, and to some extent gender blind.</p>

<p>2010 -</p>

<p>How many of them were football players? :)</p>

<p>Man, I feel like Luigi today… ;)</p>

<p>^^^ none for football, nor lax for that matter. Lots of rugby players and marathon runners… think our Ensigns picked the wrong sport??? Hmmm…</p>

<p>Have not posted on this board for awhile: Just some random thoughts…</p>

<p>Did anyone notice that, three weeks ago, Mario Washington got separated from the Academy for an “honors” violation. Mario was a 2C mid and semi-starter on the Football team. Had heard a few months ago that changes had been made in the Honor Concept at the Academy, sounds like the system may be working. This is likely a work in progress but those D1 Football players may have to live by the same honor standards as regular mids.</p>

<p>The minority issue at the Academy is real but in reality is no different from what occurs in both the government and private sectors of society today. I learned from my mid that the midshipman really do not care because they do not control who gets in and who does not. That said the larger pool of applicants and in particular the larger pool of minority applicants has allowed the academy to be more selective in that area as well. Over the past three years, my mid has noticed a difference. A perfect example of this is women at the Academy. Today the pool of females is large enough that they are no longer considered “special” when it comes to admissions.</p>

<p>Enlarging the pool of minority applicants is the long term key to keeping the high standards of admission at the academy and satisfy the demands of society. After attending an Academy outreach seminar earlier this year I truly believe the Academy is working very hard and on the right track to continue attracting “Americas Best and Brightest”, no matter where they come from. The twin efforts of reaching out to minority communities and reaching out to kids as young as 7th grade are very intelligent marketing programs and will produce the desired results. </p>

<p>The Naval Academy and all the SA’s are special places. They attract some really amazing kids that will become leaders not only in the Military but in many other parts of society. When you meet a 7th grader that made his mom drive over 100 miles just to attend an Academy outreach event and has focused goals and plans on being a part of the class 2020 you know the world will be OK.</p>

<p>2 other responses to Flemming’s article worth the read</p>

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<p>response by ADM Fowler</p>

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<p>I read them both previously. The first one is written by PhatPhelix (his gomids.com moniker). He writes well and makes a (mostly) good argument, but I think he overstates the good professor’s points to the point of absurdity. Plus, he’s an unapologetic supporter of Navy football. :slight_smile: Professor Fleming also went out to the same blog and rebutted the article Phat wrote, and I’d encourage anyone who is interested to go and read Professor Fleming’s response.</p>

<p>Professor Fleming doesn’t seem to want a bunch of unfit, effete, snobby geeks at the Service Academies - as sort of alleged by Phat. I think he’s saying that we should have well-rounded warrior-scholars rather than football players who can win football games and keep the C-I-C trophy in Annapolis, yet who cannot pass courses at the level expected of an institution with the reputation of the Naval Academy.</p>

<p>We’d all like to believe that we could field a team of future Rhodes Scholars who are also NFL prospects, but who choose “service over self” and go to USNA/USMA/USAFA/USCGA/USMMA instead of the NFL. Not bloody likely, is it?</p>

<p>The Supe’s response says there is a single admissions process. Of course, there can be no disagreement with the fact that there is one process for all; what he doesn’t talk about are the exceptions that are made to the process to ensure a more diverse class. I think he is, dare I say, not being completely forthcoming with how how it really works. The usual response is to play up all the positives - the increased applications, the service of graduates in combat - things no one can really disagree with.</p>

<p>Neither of these responses effectively rebut Professor Fleming’s opinion, IMO.</p>

<p>Wow, you’re on a roll today - 2 dead-on, 100% correct posts in a row! :D</p>

<p>I wonder why navy2010 didn’t post Fleming’s rebuttal to the rah-rah cheerleader post from the football fan? :rolleyes:</p>

<p>As for the Supe’s response…SSDD. His previous actions demonstrate his attitude much clearer than some fluff PR post.</p>

<p>:cool:</p>

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<p>Maybe because it’s not very good.</p>

<p>You know, 84, you make an articulate, cogent and attractive defense for Fleming, and I’m confident, having heard him numerous times, he’s not the ogre some, me too, can and do portray him as. Prbly be fun and charming to have as a prof, speaker, or conversationalist. And I’d be inclined to defer to your personal observations, feelings and thoughts of him. </p>

<p>But for one thing. His chronic complaining couched as academically free speech and intellectual discoursing which nearly always comes coincident to his desire and need to self-promote his last epistles bemoaning the short-comings of his life-time employer. </p>

<p>Again, this speaks to selfish self-interest, using his position as the resident counter-culture at a place that has allowed, enabled and promoted his intellectual navel gazings for decades now. And it is notably absent of any good news coming from his pen or mouth. </p>

<p>So, in the end, there seems little credibility or desire to be a constructive critic. It’s merely looking at his environment and using his safe-harboring tenure to shoot at the place, people and experience that has made his pointy-headedness an anomaly. Let’s face it, were he virtually anywhere other than USNA or another SA, he’d be just another frustrated English prof forced to publish his rants under the guise of being original.</p>

<p>Sorry. I can’t buy your well presented case because he whom you wish to defend has consistently, chronically refused to provide the necessary support for your argumaents. Conversely, I’d like to think that Fleming might somehow one day be as genuine and honorable as you seem to be.</p>

<p>In the end, while some of his arguments may be valid, because of he who offers them’s ulterior motives, we should wait until others hold them up for consideration.</p>

<p>Amazing! </p>

<p>Naval Academy does a remarkable job with its admission process. The constraints placed on USNA are no different than elsewhere(Academies) yet again the fingers are there to poke her in the eye. Look, as mention, the system isn’t perfect but Naval Academy gets it right the majority of the time! </p>

<p>Alright, lets have Naval Academy compete on the D3 vice D1 playing field. Oh, don’t forget lets not let USCGA compete at all on the D3 field. It’s kinda like being a little bit pregnant!</p>

<p>WP - </p>

<p>I don’t disagree that the publicity Dr. Fleming gets from these articles helps to sell his books. It does seem a little bit like he is biting the hand that feeds him by doing this, or at the very least it appears that he is using his position to foster his own selfish interest. I understand that point of view, but I’d offer this as well:</p>

<p>Find me a Naval Academy grad who isn’t proud of his/her association with the Naval Academy. There are probably some out there, sure, but they are probably few and far between. When grads look for jobs, do they see an Annapolis degree on their resume as a liability or as a significant advantage in getting hired? By doing that, are they not in effect “using” the Naval Academy’s reflected prestige and esteem to reflect well on themselves? Almost every time I have interviewed for jobs, the interviewer will comment, “Wow. Annapolis grad. That’s really impressive.” It doesn’t matter that I didn’t graduate in the top of my class - only that I graduated.</p>

<p>Find me a grad who doesn’t leverage his/her network of USNA (or sister SA) grads to further a career (military or civilian) when necessary. Isn’t that somehow “using” the Naval Academy to further some self-serving ends? Is it wrong? I don’t think so.</p>

<p>Why does this happen? Because people hold the Service Academies in an esteem reserved for the premier institutions of higher learning - and more. They know the place isn’t Harvard or Yale or Stanford, but they also know it is tougher in many respects. They believe grads are honorable, smart, true to their word and can be counted upon in times of need or crisis. They ascribe these attributes to SA grads without even questioning them.</p>

<p>We’re not in the business to win football games or right social wrongs. We’re in the business of protecting the country from its enemies - foreign and domestic. We need to include all walks of life in that endeavor, yes, but we can do a better job of finding the best qualified candidates of all races, creeds and both genders to do it. We’re being lazy, and that, I think, is what the professor is trying to point out.</p>

<p>“All great truths begin as blasphemies.”</p>

<p>So, I say let him have his voice and make his point whether you want to believe him or not. Maybe (eventually) someone will wake up and listen if it’s said long enough. We just don’t want to believe that our Naval Academy would do anything that isn’t 100% honorable and above board, do we?</p>

<p>USNA84 is the man</p>

<p>I think PhatPhelix pretty well nails it. I guess I should visit gomids.com more often during the off season.</p>

<p>Just a quick comment about USNA84’s comment concerning inequalities in candidate numbers. First off, receiving a candidate number is far from receiving an appointment. One of the purposes of USNA is that it can more immediately respond to the needs of the Navy than can any other officer procurement source. An increase in diversity is a goal of the present JCS/CNO. USNA can and must respond. A candidate number merely continues the application process and makes it less likely that a diversity candidate falls through the cracks. So we are allowing diversity candidates with lower SATs a longer look at the admissions process. SATs which are, without a doubt, racially biased. USNA is simply getting a better look at the overall candidate by gleaning as much other information as possible prior to making a decision. And if one reads the multitude of press releases over the past year or so, including Adm Fowler’s latest NYT rebuttal, they will note that the vast majority of the increase in diversity is indeed the ‘best and the brightest’, the ‘best and the brightest’ of those congressional districts which have not been providing candidates in the past. Fleming refuses to acknowledge this. USNA is, in fact, America’s academy. Candidates are now a better representation of America. The way it should be.</p>

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<p>Actually there were three lacrosse players and three football players in the release which I read.</p>

<p>'84, as PhatPhelix pointed out, do you want to enlighten us on which program payed for the other 37 to compete in their non-revenue producing sport?</p>

<p>Well, there you go . . .as long as we are all in agreement that the money football produces is worth the compromise, then what’s the beef? Reserve 20 spots [more or less] for varsity football players who are capable of bringing in the crowds, regardless of whether they comply with the other standards to which mids are held, because the benefits [support of non-revenue producing sports] outweigh the costs.
Isn’t that what Fleming is suggesting happens anyway?</p>