<p>"Instead of better officers, the academies produce burned-out midshipmen and cadets. They come to us thinking theyve entered a military Camelot, and find a maze of petty rules with no visible future application. These rules are applied inconsistently by the administration, and tend to change when a new superintendent is appointed every few years. The students quickly see through assurances that people die if you do X (like, leave mold on your shower curtain, a favorite claim of one recent administrator). Were a military Disneyland, beloved by tourists but disillusioning to the young people who came hoping to make a difference."</p>
<p>Much to discuss in the article. Most of it re-hashing of previous allegations (two-tiered admissions, two-tiered punishments, lowering of the bar for D1 athletes, etc).</p>
<p>I agree with his stance about D1 athletics (football, mainly) - no harm would come to a military service academy (USNA/USMA/USAFA) by dropping D1 football for D3 football. </p>
<p>Nothing but money and arrogance is what keeps it from happening.</p>
<p>I retired after 30 years from the AF several years ago and my youngest son is interested in Annapolis (Don’t know where I went wrong). I’ve just read this article in the NYT and I’m scratching my head. What’s going on there? Is Flemming on track or what? Have we as an institution really gotten that PC and spineless that we’ve dropped everything including our integrity for diversity and football at our flagship schools? Trying to really understand all this.</p>
<p>There ARE issues at USNA - but to put these grievances on the pages of the NYTimes? Hmmmm, is this the best place for the discussion? I would urge any young person or family looking into USNA or the other Academies to TALK to several local cadets/midshipmen and their families. See what they experienced. Find out what they believe are the strengths and weaknesses of the Service Academy life.</p>
<p>As a wife and mother of USNA alum ( as of next week, our mid becomes a 2ndLT USMC - I have been privvy to tons of USNA issues over the years.</p>
<p>My biggest reply is that…when you compare these issues to the ‘rank and file’ prep schools, the Ivy Leagues, the local community colleges…so many of these ‘issues’ at USNA would not even come up for interest by the administration. It is that common. The difference is that at a Service Academy there is the ATTEMPT at standards to be enforced. While I agree there is alot to be done to improve this system at Service Academies, AT LEAST there, the students hear about principles, standards, honor codes. This, in today’s culture of American narcissism, is in and of itself, an achievement.</p>
<p>Professor Fleming has his perspective and one shared by many.</p>
<p>I would just comment that as much as I have my share of stories that promote his point of view - they are overshadowed by the many many other stories of the amazing young men and women who DO challenge themselves, who DO hold themselves to honor, who DO want to carry on the tradition of honor, patriotism, duty, etc. And we besmirch these young adults everytime we leave the grievances be the ‘last word’ in this discussion.</p>
<p>Prof. Flemming main argument throughout his various articles ROTC produces a similar officer, if not better, than ones out of the Academy, for a fraction of the cost and time. You have standards enforced at ROTC units, run by officers and senior enlisted, and you have students that hold themselves to “honor,” “tradition,” and “patriotism.” This is not just an “Academy” thing.</p>
<p>Every year or two, Professor Flemming produces an editorial or article complaining about the Naval Academy, and succeeds in finding a publisher. He’s also on-call for reporters in need of an inside critic of service academies. He wrote a book in which he described his own misery in teaching the “intellectually lazy” Midshipmen, and revealed his cerebral secret to connecting with these flawed students: his own impressive set of “guns” (arms).</p>
<p>One wonders how the poor man brings himself to contribute to the taxpayers’ burden he decries, cashing those USNA paychecks for 23 years.</p>
<p>“Ab Irato” “Ab Asino Lanam” He has his agenda and it is displayed every few years. But the money flows in. How can he keep doing this job for an institution he fundamentaly disagrees with? I would think he might resign in protest unless he feels that he is upholding a bastion of correct thinking in the midst of all those barbarians.</p>
<p>So much for character, conviction, loyalty, and appreciation for those who enable and allow his bellyaching. </p>
<p>No doubt he might proclaim these very descriptors as reflecting his motives and actions to expound about the short-comings of his own lifelong academic community. The problem with that would be that he’s so regular and one-sided about it all, simply exposing his self-absorbed, self-serving agenda rather than any genuineness or inkling of constructive criticism. Let’s just call his annual antics what what they are. Selfish. Smoke signals letting all the world know he’s another silly book he and the NY Times think you must read. Really? Not.</p>
<p>Sad that a man of his apparent intellect, education, experience, and perhaps talent can’t use it more constructively. Imagine the good he might have done.</p>
<p>Whistle Pig: im on this forum occasionally and have made a few posts and you’ve always been helpful. I just read this and can’t thank you enough. Very well said.</p>
<p>If he’s spent the last 23 years at the Academy, what does he really know about ROTC or OCS? Or the fleet?</p>
<p>I’m sure those programs produce fine officers. Are there data (Fleming offers none) to support his premise that once comissioned, all officers perform similarly? I can already see a reply that “USNA promotes its own” so that is probably not a avenue for discussion. How about retention? Do the Academy graduates burn out before their ROTC/OCS colleague as Fleming would have us believe? Data should be available for that.</p>
<p>I am not a Flemming fan, and there are enough holes in his arguement to drive a fleet through. And I have news for him: it happens at just about EVERY COLLEGE and UNIVERSTIY in the country!!! They ALL recruit for something or other!!! </p>
<p>One can question the attributes of those gaining that coveted appointment all they want to. It is not a perfectly level playing field, but kudo’s to the academy for making the process as level and transparent as possible. Go and see how much intel you get at any civilian institution re: their admission process- good luck!</p>
<p>I am sick and tired of hearing about Flemming’s “set aside” athletes and priors. It may get them a tweak of an advantage of getting in, but once in, they are subject to the same rigors- heck, even more so if you add in the demands heaped on them by their sports. Those that bemoan athletes “skating through” are neither athlete nor privy to the demands it places on those midshipmen. Bottom line- they still need the same 2.0, the same PRT, the same conduct reports, the same blessing from the Supe to earn that diploma and commission. AND they do it while representing the academy at events throughout the country that [agree or not] stir the interest of others to follow in their footsteps.</p>
<p>Flemming needs to spend a year in the fleet to understand that part of the equation. He gets HIS view- but he fails to realize that the lessons learned OUTSIDE the classroom are JUST as important as the ones taught in his ENGLISH class. Let him see what it takes to lead a group of sailors or marines out in the field. Let him see how the lessons learned EVEN IN A LOCKER ROOM transition to the real world. He bemoans the athletes because “athletic” is about the last adjective anyone would use to describe him- one stiff breeze would knock the guy on his kiester. And can someone please get rid of that bowtie while they are at it! Perhaps what he detests is the time he has [expected and paid for] to spend in his office with extra-instruction, IF you can pin him down long enough to get it scheduled!!! </p>
<p>WP, OSDAD and AF7862- tossing my hat into your arenas on this one. The ONLY thing Flemming is looking to accomplish is promoting his OWN royalities. If he is that disgusted with the place then move on. Barring that, do your job and stop smearing the name of an institution that deserves better.</p>
<p>Folks- your sons and daughters want to attend USNA? Don’t hesitate for even a second. As imperfect as it may be, along with its sister academies, it is light years ahead of every other institution in this country.</p>
<p>2010, I think everyone knows that all colleges recruit. It appears that some do not have one positive thing to say about USNA and are quick to point out flaws that try to cast a shadow on my brother and sons Academy. Don’t even think about my other brothers Academy-USMA.</p>
<p>It’s totally understandable that you’d “guess” something like that. Please share some of your other nuggets of keen insight, wowing wisdom, and cutting-edge intellect. Duh. :)</p>
<p>A big and exciting world awaits your talents. Go and get it, little fella. I suspect the USNA’s a bit beyond your reach though. But I suspect you’ve already discovered that.</p>
<p>in reply to the question raised by VVYH2844:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Fair enough question I suppose.</p>
<p>Well, let me put it this way.
When OUR son was looking at colleges, we DID compare. We looked at plenty of civilian schools, and 4 of the 5 service academies. Mind you, “military” was not in the equation at that point- it would come later, so our focus was on “where can [we] get the best education for our son”… along with a host of other compare and contrast elements… does the school offer his major, can he participate in his sport, is it a “good fit”, etc. We were fortunate enough not to have financial constraints factor into the equation, but still wanted to know we were getting our “monies worth” when narrowing down his applications. HE was fortunate to get into all the schools to which he applied, and thus had come serious decision making to do.</p>
<p>HE was impressed with the attributes the military academies offered.
HE was impressed with the strive for excellence.
HE was impressed with the students and the facilities.
And HE stated it best…that there was “something there” that he did not find elsewhere, even at his beloved ND.</p>
<p>The academies are a cut above no matter how you slice it.
I am not sure HE even realizes to what extent yet- although I trust in time he will realize just how valuable an experience it has been. All he knows right now is that it was hard, he did it, it was “worth it,” “no regrets,” [would not necessarily do it again… but he is still too close to having just DONE it…]… </p>
<p>The academies OFFER a very unique experience that, IF YOU put the effort into it, YOU will reap the benefits. IT is ANYTING BUT like every other “college and university”… and despite all you read and hear, you are held to a higher standard…one wayward step will remind you of that front and center… and the longer you are there, the more is expected of you! Any time you even THINK the academy is like “any other school” just take a look at how many eyebrows YOU raise when you say “I graduated from the Naval Academy”… or “I attend the Naval Academy”… there is a REASON why that statement alone brings the level of respect it does from those hearing it!!! </p>
<p>So getting back to the question of recruits-
all schools recruit-
they recruit for the BEST students, the MOST well-rounded, and the most TALENTED in whatever field is of interest to THEIR mission. The academies are competing for the best of the best this country has to offer- in the classroom, on the athletic fields, etc. The DIFFERENCE is that no matter what talent is “brought” to the table that gets the door open, in the end the benchmark has to be met… thus, those excelling at academics still need to master the athletic and physical components, those excelling on the gridiron must still achieve that 2.0 in the classroom- it may take lots of EI [extra instruction] for some to get there… heck, my son coached LOTS of “scholars” to meet their PRTs, just as HE got lots of help with mastering differential multivariable equations… it is all about teamwork and succeeding as a class!</p>
<p>And THAT is perhaps the biggest difference of all between the academies and other schools! You WILL have others looking over your shoulder at EVERYTHING you do. You will sink or swim as a team. And even THOSE teams compete to be “Color Company”… the best of the best!!! [Shout out to 26 Company!!! Bravo Zulu!!!]</p>
<p>If for one minute you still think USNA is “just like any other school,” you owe it to yourself to visit. One picture is worth a thousand words. There is a reason 17,000 of you applied last year vying for just 1230-or-so slots… and is was NOT the result of a COMMON APPLICATION that inflates the application numbers of the vast majority of schools out there!!! </p>
<p>I am of the opinion that is incumbent on ALL to investigate the schools to which you are applying. Visit. Take the tour. Walk the campus post-tour. SPEAK to students. COMPARE AND CONTRAST. Is THIS school a best-fit for YOU? If not, move on! If so, then apply and hope the fat letter arrives in the mail! And if I may, don’t let the “military” aspect of the academies scare you away… a military service may not be on your radar screen right now- but visit and make sure! The academics speak for themselves, just as the academies will sell themselves for those with the foresight to take a look!!</p>
<p>The is for the parents who might read this.
The “something there” that Navy2010 refers to is difficult to quantify for us parents who have had a child attend the NA. But, interestingly, that is essentially the same thing my son said. He was accepted to many of the “right” schools but he chose the NA. In large part, because it felt “right.” [He even re-affirmed that a couple of times when I reminded him that he could be relaxing under the Oak trees at Rice, Duke, or Princeton. “Yeah,” he said, but “I’m in the right place.”]</p>
<p>Now, one year further down the road than 2010’s son, he loves what he is doing and he loves being “from” the NA. He does not regret it for an instant. [Especially consdiering the excellent experiences and friends he has accumulated along the way.]</p>
<p>Fleming’s comments are not entirely mis-placed. There is certainly room for improvement at the NA. But, what institution could not stand some “adjustment.” Given that this is a publicly-financed institution, there is room for critcism of the athletic programs, the extra consideration given athletes, and all that goes along with it. BUT, even if all of Fleming’s criticisms are valid, the NA is STILL a finer LEADERSHIP laboratory than 98% [heck 99%] of the other colleges and universities in the country. Even with the faults that have been identified. And EDUCATIONALLY, it continues to rank up there with the most respected of schools.</p>
<p>So, I won’t dismiss Fleming’s comments entirely. BUT, and this is the for random parents still reading, I will be encouraging my daughter to attend the NA if she is given the chance. THAT is how much I have come to believe in its process.</p>
<p>I actually agree with Professor Fleming on a lot of what he is saying. I’ve observed some apparently “unfair” practices in admission - at least with the information I was privy to - over the past five years. I’ve also had some email correspondence with him, and he doesn’t strike me as a “nut job”. He’s dedicated over 20 years of his life teaching at USNA, and if he didn’t care he could just “shut up and teach” to paraphrase Laura Ingraham.</p>
<p>There is clearly a drive to have a more diverse class along racial, ethnic and gender lines, and I support that goal. (An aside: Funny that Luigi posted the article; the USCGA is getting scrutiny because of the apparent lack of diversity when compared to the other federal academies.) </p>
<p>What I do not like to see is race/gender/ethnicity being used as a trump card over scholastic preparation or merit. It does no one a good service when under qualified candidates are admitted, and it really tarnishes the reputation of USNA as “the best of the best”.</p>
<p>The multi-tiered admissions process also engenders negative feelings in the Brigade because the kids want to believe that the best qualified people are there with them and not “quotas”. That’s also unfair to minority kids who are top achievers to be considered to be at USNA solely because of their race or ethnicity.</p>
<p>There is certainly some correlation to being a minority and lower socio-economic status. If we’re going to consider race and ethnicity as factors in selecting candidates, shouldn’t we also consider socioeconomic status? Should the wealthy African American candidate have an advantage over a white male whose family struggles to put food on the table? I don’t think so.</p>
<p>In a perfect world the process would be completely color blind, but we don’t live in a perfect world, do we?</p>
<p>So, what’s the answer? IMO, it’s for USNA to be more aggressive with outreach programs to attract the best qualified minority candidates. That’s a tough sell when the Naval Academy is competing with the Ivies and Big State U’s who may offer lucrative scholarships without all the military rigor and obligation. </p>
<p>And, no, I’m not saying that ALL minority candidates are “quotas” or unworthy to be at USNA. I’m saying that I have observed during my five years of being a BGO that minority kids with low SAT scores and class standing get candidate numbers when white/male aspirants with the same scores and class standing are not even considered. I think that is wrong and unfair.</p>
<p>PS - I am a Navy season ticket holder for football and don’t care a bit if we compete in D1 or D3 - but I am in the vast minority of Navy sports fans. I’m really not sure if football is as powerful a recruiting tool as some believe - I know I did not give a tinker’s damn about Navy’s football record when I made my choice to attend USNA, but there are those in the alumni who see it as sacrilege to even breathe a word of moving from D1.</p>
<p>For those of us who are fortunate enough to be the parents of current Mids or recent grads, let me pose this last question you: If your son or daughter was passed over for admission to USNA in favor of someone you knew was a lesser qualified applicant, wouldn’t you have questions as to “Why?” I have had to have some of those awkward conversations over the past five years, and it really rings hollow with the unsuccessful candidates and their parents, counselors and teachers who believe that admission to USNA is based on merit and not on race/ethnicity/gender. It makes my job as a BGO a lot harder to go back to those schools as well. People expect Big State U and the 4 year privates to use race as a determining factor in admission. They are a lot less understanding when it happens at a Service Academy. Just sayin’…</p>