<p>Even in the worst case scenario of a primary physician with over $250,000 in medical school debt, he/she will make 40% more than a RN with ten years experience in after tax income IN HIS/HER FIRST YEAR after residency and AFTER accounting for paying off all the medical school debt over ten years. By the age of 40 the GP’s aftertax income is 2.4 times that of the RN. </p>
<p>The differences in income over a lifetime get vastly greater for specialists. We are talking orders of magnitude difference. Generally, the longer the residency the higher the ROI even accounting for the lost years of full income. </p>
<p>Any nurse trying to follow that type of strategy over the past ten years would probably have lost a third of her nest egg and maybe her house if she borrowed against it. If she bought a condo in Reno with her extra cash she probably needs a second job. The physician investing in his practice is still doing fine.</p>
<p>Yes, medicine (physician, nurse, other allied health) has been a great career path for a long time and will likely remain a good path in the near future. </p>
<p>The main reason for this is that demand is expected to go up and the supply is very tightly regulated by oligopolistic cartels…umm I mean official licensing and accrediting agencies that only want to protect us (and the lucrativeness of these careers).</p>
<p>A little tangent:
I always wonder what people mean by this. To me it is sort of a meaningless expression that people use all the time.</p>
<p>Doesn’t “order of magnitude” depend on what base ratio we are talking about?</p>
<p>If we’re talking about a base of 2, then something would be an order of magnitude bigger than something else if it is twice as large.</p>
<p>But since I think we typically talk in terms of 10, a number would be an order of magnitude larger than another number only if it is 10 times larger.</p>
<p>At least that’s how I think of the term.</p>
<p>I understand it generally means “way, way bigger”, but is there an accepted quantitative defnition for this?</p>
<p>Orders of magnitude typically refer to powers of ten. One order of magnitude larger would be ten times larger, two would be a hundred and three would be a thousand. More generally in refers to anything that grows exponentially as opposed to linearly. The Richter scale for earthquakes is a good example of an exponential scale.</p>
<p>Invests all what extra? What 18-25 year old do you know who has extra? If they had extra they would buy a decent car or a house rather than living in an apartment with roommates paying the landlord’s mortgage. The argument is ridiculous!</p>
<p>I probably should address the original question. Engineering, Math, Sciences, and Business are all good undergrad areas. Weather you get you BS in Econ or Engineering you can always go get your MBA later. I would also consider medical and teaching. A business degree with a nice psych minor is not a bad way to go if you want something fairly general to keep your options open. I would avoid English, Art History etc. unless they were second majors to something with some real application to something.</p>
THat’s what I thought. So “orders” of magnitude plural would mean at least two orders of 10 higher, or 100 times. </p>
<p>So the typical specialist makes 100 times more than the typical nurse? I’m sure some may, but I didn’t think it was that many.</p>
<p>Otherwise, if it isn’t generally assumed to mean 10 times, it is sort of meaningless. Because there’s a huge difference between 4 times and 100 times.</p>
<p>Obviously, this is not all that important. Just something I thought about.</p>
<p>Exponential scales are often continuous not discrete, like the Richter scale. So you could have orders greater than one and smaller than 2, even though it may sound weird!</p>
<p>Nevertheless, point well taken, I meant greater than ten time differential in income, not greater than 100 times. (unless the specialist runs a Botox or medical marijuana clinic!).</p>
<p>My two D’s are presently being educated to become a D.O. (doctor of osteopathic medicine) and an R.D. (registered dietitian). I would think both those fields will be OK going forward, debt notwithstanding. Both have a passion toward their craft as well, which should help.</p>
<p>But outside of healthcare (heck, even within it), it might be a good idea to identify common attributes that employers are looking for, when a job does open up. I have to think that these somewhat general qualities cumulatively will put a job applicant a leg up, so to speak, just as I’m convinced that many college graduates lack one or more of these skills:</p>
<p>1) Work Ethic (“I’ll do what needs to be done & work until it’s finished”)
2) Computer Savvy (Excel, Outlook, for starters)
3) Writing Ability (A lost art, which makes those who CAN write stand out)
4) Interpersonal Communication Skills (texting has degraded these skills)
5) Taking Responsibility for Actions (you’d be surprised how deflecting is default for some)</p>
<p>An employer that sees all these qualities shine in an applicant will remember them, even if there isn’t a job available at the time.</p>
<p>^ Great list, to which I’d add “ability to learn new tricks and play by new rules”, i.e, flexibility- a quality that may not be relevant for a young person but critical for an older person who wants to hang on to a job.</p>
<p>Unless you are a business major in accounting and/or finance, or you are majoring in economics at a well-regarded school, a general business major is less impressive and less marketable than a traditional liberal arts degree (Art History, etc.). There have been a lot of recent articles in the national press about the low general quality of generic business curricula and the troubled reputation of undergraduate business programs (except at a handful of elite places).</p>
<p>Medicine is not a golden go. There is a great deal of uncertainty about the future compensation of MD’s in this country, with politicians demanding that MDs get paid less in order to fund universal health care schemes. If we see government-mandated wage controls on MD salaries, there is considerable doubt about the future of medicine as a stable lucrative upper-middle-class profession in the USA.</p>
<p>Teaching is a problem too. States are broke and are not hiring new teachers.</p>
<p>I’m not pointing this out to suggest that everyone should quit college and go beg on a street corner. I’m pointing this out because college is about education, not vocational training. If one must make money to justify one’s attendance at college, one should rethink one’s priorities and go get certified in in HVAC repair or something.</p>
<p>yeah, I mean, who wants to go into medicine and saving lives if it just means a paltry living - like job security, owning your own home. Universal healthcare schemes are just coddling the poor. If they want to see the Dr. GO GET A JOB! It isn’t fair that physicians may have to make a few less dollars so that everyone has access to health care.</p>
<p>And don’t get me staaaaaarted on teaching. Those people expect better benefits than private sector employees, they should live on 5 vacation days per year like the rest of us!
And if states are going broke just privatize the school systems…those teachers will shut up and sit down real quick if they want a job. And it will keep the trailer trash away from my kids and allow the rich to not pay more taxes…cause you know when the rich keep more of their money it creates jobs! DUH!</p>
<p>By order of magnitude, the difference in output (volume and quality) between the bottom of the barrel how-did-he-get-hired and the whiz-kids is 10 to 1, easily. Very easily. </p>
<p>Management has yet to get the message that a handful of super coders or super engineers can often deliver better work than hundreds of ho-hums. If you don’t believe me, you may want to Google ‘Janitor Memo’.</p>
<p>Currently, an MD requires a considerable up-front capital investment and at least 8 years of post-high school training, not to mention that medicine is an extremely high stress field that requires a greater than average cognitive skill set. I certainly could be wrong, but no, I don’t think a lot of ambitious, gifted people are going to spring for that if all they get is job stability and the ability to pay a mortgage in exchange. Are we going to give up the right to sue doctors? Are we going to pay for their education? I don’t know what the ideal salary is for an MD, but I doubt the government does either. </p>
<p>As for teacher benefits, etc., I never said they didn’t deserve them. I said that states aren’t hiring. That’s a fact. The topic is, “What is a good career major?” It’s not, “What do people deserve to make?”</p>
<p>Yes, I know all about medicine being high stress. I am a Registered Nurse who works night shift in a high acuity rehab facility and also with hospice pts. I am building supervisor and responsible for making judgement calls and waking up Dr.'s at 3am when a pt. goes bad and needs sent out, or in many cases making the decision to send them out 911 and then calling the Dr.</p>
<p>In many ways, the federal government already quietly mandates healthcare provider salaries - medicare/medicaid reimbursement rates. And I must say I see incredible tragedies on a day to day basis regarding kicking medicaid pts. out because they can’t pay. Sure, they get an eviction notice but for someone with 1 leg, out of control diabetes and living in poverty, their voice is pretty limited in society.</p>
<p>And education should be a right in this country, not a privilege for the better off. Education protects us from the atrocities of tyrants.</p>
<p>turbo93 - I agree with you. I would rather have 5 hot shot programmers than 50 mediocre ones. With 50 programer I would need to have 2-5 additional managers, and more chance of making mistakes.</p>
<p>I highly respect what you do, mspearl. But my point about medicine, teaching etc. is that people choosing them, or any other field of study, under the impression that a stable, even lucrative position is guaranteed simply by virtue of studying a particular field, are deluding themselves. There should be other motivations for university study besides vocational ones.</p>
<p>That is a red herring. Nobody, even those in favor of universal health care, have ever proposed such a wage control scheme. Even the AMA strongly supports universal health care as it will mean more patients. Because of limited supply of physicians, accelerating retirement of baby-boomers over the next decade, it will take a very long time before physician incomes drop significantly.</p>
<p>Another safety is to study and complete related and/or complementary disciplines - so, you specialize a bit, but at the same time, can do multiple roles. Example would be computer science and statistics, as two different degrees (BS/MS) and the like. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, companies are playing the purple squirrel game way too much - and unless you have no life, you can’t keep up with the latest and greatest. I’ve seen the kind of ‘interview questions’ given to candidates in Elbonia type places. They are pretty challenging alright, but memorizing the code that reverses a doubly linked list is of no help against real world problems. Heck, I’ll be lucky if I remember how to close an open curly bracket in C++ on some days.</p>
<p>The answer - I don’t really know what the answer is. Despite seven engineering and applied science degrees in the house, neither of my daughters will go near an engineering school. There’s no money there, and ironically, what killed the goose that laid the golden egg is not outsourcing, but the flood of untalented, good enough, I’m here for the money types a decade or two ago.</p>