<p>Hence, without individual cross admit statistics, the statistic provided by the director is worthless. Look… as a thought experiment I can say Cornell wins over 75% of cross admits from Harvard, Penn State, Rutgers, and SUNY Albany. But that doesn’t tell me a thing about how many cross admits Cornell wins over from Harvard. Hence the statistic that the director provided is flawed. You can (maybe) conclude that Duke wins more cross-admits from the group as a whole… but you definitely cannot conclude that Duke wins a lot of cross-admits from Cornell, as shown by the thought experiment above.</p>
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The learning environment that one is placed in is perhaps one of the most crucial aspects that determine one’s success. If a student is surrounded by more high-achieving and intellectual peers with all kinds of interests, then that individual is going to be more inspired to match up to his peers and put forth the required effort to flourish. It’s pretty logical when you think about it. For the record, I didn’t know the exact GPAs or test scores of many of my friends. Most of my close friends and people I interacted with were students I met in my classes. I was always on the Honors and AP tracks so I was always surrounded by high-achieving peers. However, my other friends who weren’t smart definitely had some negative influences on me though. Whatever, I know a lot more about the real world though lol. I maintain that had I gone to TJHSST or Exeter Academy, I would have done even in better and learned more in high school relatively than I did in my ordinary public school.</p>
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Cornell sounds like such a trade school to me. How in the world can people have such SPECIFIC interests at a young age? I applied to the ILR school and was accepted. What initially intrigued me about the program was that it seemed to be relevant to a lot of different fields(business, law, industry) and that it would give me the critical thinking skills to succeed with any profession in the real world. I had NO IDEA what I specifically wanted to focus on in ILR school for sure. I imagine many ILR applicants went through a similar thought process. Who in the world goes to college thinking that he/she is interested in studying “international agribusiness”? Most people say “business”, “law”, “medicine” or “engineering” in my experience. Some people might be more specific and say “BME” or “Accounting” but I have never heard anyone say “organizational psychology”.</p>
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I don’t care who it was written by. It presented Cornell as the more favorable school when in reality, Duke is favored over Cornell by 3 out of 4 students. That’s a ridiculous error that has nothing to do with statistics, but rather faulty information and sampling.</p>
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That seems like a really counterintuitive and presumptious thing to do if you truly wanted to be a lawyer. Maybe there are some kids that do this, but at any rate, the amount of people who got into a law school isn’t an important statistical measure. If anything, it shows that a number of Cornell students actively aim for the top law schools and thus, we can conclude that they experience less success than Duke students of equal caliber as evidenced by the WSJ feeder survey.</p>
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Plenty of students go to JHU every year because they believe the JHU name can get them into a good med school. Plenty of students go to Georgetown every year because they belive the G-town name can give them great political connections for law school, government positions, etc. You overestimate how passionate students actually are about their intended area of study before entering college. Most students don’t want to get PhDs. They want to get good jobs and have stable lives. I have no doubt in my mind that Cornell has a slightly better reputation among academic circles than Duke because of the number of top ranked departments the school has. That’s not the demographic we’re discussing about here though.</p>
<p>“Cornell premeds with a 3.4 GPA or higher had an 88% acceptance into med school (I’ve said this at least 5 times). So, when you remove the grade deflation out of the picture, Cornell is at least as good as Duke for med school placement:
Cornell University Undergraduate Admissions Office”</p>
<p>Basically, what you’re saying is the average Duke premed has just as much success getting into med school as the cornell premeds that have 3.4+s. Considering how hard premed classes and many science classes are curved, and Cornell has grade deflation, as you state, meaning 3.4 is even more difficult to achieve, it would suffice to say that Duke students enjoy more success applying to med school.</p>
<p>woohoo!!! post 500!!!</p>
<p>Brown man, please read the following phrase very slowly and carefully to yourself.</p>
<p>"Duke enrolls between 75 and 90 percent of cross-admitted students from the third group of top competitors, which includes Cornell, Northwestern and Georgetown. "</p>
<p>I don’t know how to simplify this more. That sentence clearly suggests that Duke wins anywhere from 75 to 90 percent of the cross-admits from EACH of those schools. The RANGE is 75-90 percent. </p>
<p><a href="http://www..com/thread.php?thread_id=830094&mc=63&forum_id=1&PHPSESSID=1916542765fc0fb7edb68f5ed09fd712%5B/url%5D">http://www..com/thread.php?thread_id=830094&mc=63&forum_id=1&PHPSESSID=1916542765fc0fb7edb68f5ed09fd712</a></p>
<p>Oh well, the link does not work. The numbeers are certainly not ambiguous.</p>
<p>I’m not even reading EAD’s posts anymore. They were entertaining for a while but I can only take so much of it…</p>
<p>Hallowarts:
“College Directors of Admission DO know what they are talking about. Especially the directors of these top universities since they continually seek to win over cross-admits from peer schools. These numbers are highly important, and they are certainly not trivial enough to forge these numbers out of thin air. At the very least, these numbers are just as reliable as the WSJ survey.”</p>
<p>No one said they are forged out of thin air. They are based on responses that Duke gets from admitted students. There’s no doubt this is a flawed method - many admits that choose to go elsewhere do not send these in, and people that actually enroll at Duke do send them in. And how can these numbers and the WSJ numbers both be reliable if they tell such different tales??</p>
<p>“What you say makes no sense to me here. The Director noted that for JHU, Northwestern, and Cornell, the cross-admit is around 75% in favor of Duke. (For all three schools). How is that number ambiguous?”</p>
<p>Exactly! You mentioned that the statistic is for all three schools. The statistic says Duke is better than that mentioned group as a whole, but there may be individual schools within that group that Duke fared poorly against in terms of cross admits. For example, Duke could have split cross admits 40% to 60% with Cornell, and done really well against JHU and Northwestern, and caused the overall cross admit rate for this group to go to 75%. But this does not mean that Duke wins over a lot of cross admits from Cornell. It simply means when these schools are taken as a group, Duke does well against them. This statistic is extremely misleading. Look at my example I gave about with Cornell vs Harvard and a group of state schools. Can you conclude that Cornell wins over lots of students from Harvard because of the thought experiment I gave above? No, but that is what your statistic does with Cornell and Duke. Here is the thought experiment:
“Look… as a thought experiment I can say Cornell wins over 75% of cross admits from Harvard, Penn State, Rutgers, and SUNY Albany. But that doesn’t tell me a thing about how many cross admits Cornell wins over from Harvard. Hence the statistic that the director provided is flawed. You can (maybe) conclude that Duke wins more cross-admits from the group as a whole… but you definitely cannot conclude that Duke wins a lot of cross-admits from Cornell, as shown by the thought experiment above.”</p>
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<p>No “academic reason” for biz students to turn down Duke, for Cornell? Cornell’s AEM program is an actual undergraduate business program, not pre-business program. It is ranked #4 in the nation by the business week, and its finance department this year was ranked #1, even ahead of powerhouses such as Wharton or Stern at undergraduate level. If this isn’t “academic” reason, I don’t what it is. And, for the record, if you do a search of my old posts, I turned down Duke for Cornell last year because I wanted to study Econ in CAS, as well as get an opportunity to take some finance or accounting courses at AEM to learn more about business. Not to mention, I liked Cornell’s campus a bit better than Duke’s. </p>
<p>Also, you mysteriously believe that going to a XYZ school will give you a leg up over others in getting admission to top law schools? Trust me, plenty of Cornell kids go to top law schools. LOL. What makes you think that Duke kids get noticeable advantage in getting admission to top law schools, compared to Cornell grads? It is all about LSAT and gpa, but more importantly, LSAT. You ain’t getting into top 10 law school with 160 LSAT, even if your gpa is 3.7 from Duke. You ain’t getting into top l0 law school with those stats from Cornell, either. I also happened to know from looking at several recent Cornell graduates, through my fraternity and my friends’ fraternities, that kids with 3.5-3.6 gpa with LSAT above 169-170 tend to get into at least one of the top 14 law schools. Case in point, I know a recent grad from my fraternity got into UPenn law, Duke law, UVa law, and was waitlisted at Columbia law, rejected at Harvard and Yale law, with 3.67 gpa and 170 LSAT. Yet, I know another kid who was rejected from every single top 14 law schools, with 3.89 gpa, and 163 LSAT. The point is, as long as you individually don’t get sufficient numbers in both gpa and LSAT, you aren’t getting into top law schools either from Duke or Cornell. It is all up to the individual to gain admission to top law schools, not their undergraduate school. And, it is not like we are talking about the difference in reputation between Cornell and Harvard. We are talking about Cornell and Duke. What makes you assert, with so much certainty, that Duke will “place” its grads much better at top law schools compared to Cornell?</p>
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<p>Not when it’s hearsay.</p>
<p>But again, what do cross-admit statistics prove about the caliber of the student body or the quality of the undergraduate experience?</p>
<p>“Exactly! You mentioned that the statistic is for all three schools. Nevertheless, the rate at Duke won over cross admits from individual schools Might be different. For example, Duke could have split cross admits 50-50 with Cornell, and done really well against JHU and Northwestern, and caused the overall cross admit rate for this group to go to 75%. But this does not mean that Duke wins over a lot of cross admits from Cornell. It simply means when these schools are taken as a group, Duke does well against them.”</p>
<p>By no means am i suggesting they are both correct. Cornellians have been backing the WSJ survey even though it is too flawed.</p>
<p>A Duke student could too back their Director of Admissions’s data.</p>
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<p>I for one, certainly haven’t.</p>
<p>I edited heavily… look above</p>
<p>“Exactly! You mentioned that the statistic is for all three schools. Nevertheless, the rate at Duke won over cross admits from individual schools Might be different. For example, Duke could have split cross admits 50-50 with Cornell, and done really well against JHU and Northwestern, and caused the overall cross admit rate for this group to go to 75%. But this does not mean that Duke wins over a lot of cross admits from Cornell. It simply means when these schools are taken as a group, Duke does well against them”</p>
<p>omg…can a Cornell student please enlighten brownman on the meaning of the sentence?</p>
<p>DUDE! I ARGUED AGAINST WSJ!!! LOOK ABOVE, post 422 point 3.
I said:
"3) EAD,
Your Wall Street Journal citation is ultimately flawed. It takes the number of students from a university that get into top schools and divides that number by the total number of students (14,000 for cornell vs 6000 for duke )at the university, to obtain its rankings.</p>
<p>Cornell’s class is well over double Duke’s, and hotel, architecture, and agricultural students have no interest in going to top med/law schools. These kids don’t even apply to top med/law/b-schools, hence lowering Cornell’s rating! If this statistic were the number of kids who go to top schools over the number of kids who apply, then I would concede this to you. If you can find this new statistic, do so, and I guarantee you there will be virtually no difference between Duke/Cornell. This shouldn’t be too difficult to understand, you are a brilliant genius of Duke student after all."</p>
<p>I actually think that the Dean meant that Duke wins cross-admits by 75-90% at each school. So Duke wins 75-90 with Cornell, 75-90 with NU, and 75-90 with JHU. I don’t believe the statistic, even though I think this is what the dean meant.</p>
<p>^ Thank you coolman</p>
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<p>No, it would not suffice to say that. Again, first you need better data from Duke. Then there are a whole bunch of different factors you need to consider and control for. I thought I had laid out some of these assumptions to you in the past, and yet you choose to ignore them.</p>
<p>One thing I thought of this afternoon is that there are a whole bunch of Cornell students who apply to medical school as sophomores and get into UB, SUNY-Upstate, and SUNY-Downstate through a special program. These numbers don’t count in the official numbers that Cornell reports because they applied not as regular medical school applicants.</p>
<p>The other thing is that we have no idea whether or not the Duke number includes programs in osteopathy. The Cornell number does not, but I believe it should.</p>
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<p>I don’t know what this argument is about, but I thought that Brownman hit rock bottom when he tried to argue that Cornell was better because it was in a certain athletic conference.</p>
<p>I love the spirit and nature of the Ivy League with all of my heart, but sometimes things would just be so much easier for all involved if Cornell was in the Big 10 or ACC.</p>
<p>Your statistic is valid for the group as a whole, but not for each individual school. I am positive about this:
"Duke enrolls between 75 and 90 percent of cross-admitted students from the third group of top competitors, which includes Cornell, Northwestern and Georgetown. "</p>
<p>The meaning of this sentence is that for the entire group, the rate at which Duke wins cross-admits is between 75 and 90 percent.</p>
<p>if Duke did get the invitation into the ivy-league back then, it would have easily become the snobbiest university in the world by now. they are already this crazy with 20% admit-rate and sharing the same median SAT with Brown and UChicago, but i haven’t seen any Brown or Uchicago students going this crazy over his school.</p>
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<p>Silly Cayuga! Graduating from Cornell and going into a management training program to run a major resort isn’t real business, since it doesn’t involve hedge funds nor does it happen on Wall Street. It just provides services to people who want / desire them, and what kind of business proposition is that?</p>
<p>"Your statistic is valid for the group as a whole, but not for each individual school. I am positive about this:
"Duke enrolls between 75 and 90 percent of cross-admitted students from the third group of top competitors, which includes Cornell, Northwestern and Georgetown. "</p>
<p>The meaning of this sentence is that for the entire group, the rate at which Duke wins cross-admits is between 75 and 90 percent."</p>
<p>Wow…I am done with this thread…</p>