<p>I think some of you guys fail to realize the true meaning of my post and how it's not directed as a bashing or biased opinion. I never attended VMI or WP, or tried to get into those schools. This information is provided by kids who went to VMI that I know, and from kids who go to WP. Everyone at VMI will tell you that they would go to WP in a heartbeat if they had the opportunities. I was simply stating the facts on each, not saying that WP doesn't build great soldiers, but it has become an institution where nepitism and profound grades and recommendations get you in, rather than leadership skills hence why I stated VMI. For all those that are quick to defend, I have a feeling that you are so "gung ho" in defending something that you have failed to comprehend the deterioration of it.</p>
<p>And VMI from my understanding frowns upon females not simply because they are females, but because athletically speaking, most, i repeat most, cannot match up to a man. This is furthermore caused the plebe year and "rats" days to be taken more lightly because who would want to watch a female getting screamed at and yelled at, and kicked right?</p>
<p>This is just my 2 cents, and you have the right to disagree all you want.</p>
<p>Isn't it wonderful that all Americans have a right to their own opinions, no matter how wrong they are?</p>
<p>Hey, Hulk, I hope you never meet up with my 125 lb, 5'2" daughter who completed her Beast carrying the same 40-50 lb. ruck up and down the hills of NY alongside of her much larger male new cadet comrades. I would prefer her not to have to deal with one more backward-thinking male, especially one that disparages others' accomplishments based on heresay. </p>
<p>Why don't you go experience things for yourself and then come back and share your thoughts? You might have more credibility.</p>
<p>p.s. Just because you say they're facts, doesn't make them facts.</p>
<p>Hulk- 3rd hand information is usually pretty lame information and you are the recipient of 3rd or 4th hand information. VMI doesn't "look down" on females anymore than West Point "looks down" on females. Perhaps some individuals at either place have different opinions- but institutionally you are dead wrong. Further, you don't really have a clue about the Rat line or the 4th class system at either USMA or VMI. For example, while VMI still practices an adversative 4th class system compared to USMA, absolutely it is also true that VMI's rat line is less physical today than it was 35 years ago- but my observation is that it is far more controlled and purposeful today than it was then. So has the deemphasis on fairly relentless degradation and physical abuse as practiced back in the "old corps" produced a lower quality of grad and officer? Not from what I can tell- in fact the contrary. So your theory basically doesn't hold a heck of a lot of water from my perspective. Finally- whatever your opinions on women at VMI - USMA or anywhere else- they are there because it is the law, because it is their right to be there and because the Army benefits from their being there. The arguments of 1995 at VMI died a long time ago and only a true outsider even raises them anymore. Further- I don't know what cadets you are talking to - but I know plenty of cadets and grads who are attending their first choice of college and would kick you down a steep hill for presuming to spew that they would all go to USMA if they had the chance. So- speak for yourself not for others (like me for example who you apparently presume to speak for); and perhaps you might speak from personal experience not from thoughts picked up over a beer. To be blunt-it seems to me that you don't know what you are talking about.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I was simply stating the facts on each, not saying that WP doesn't build great soldiers, but it has become an institution where nepitism and profound grades and recommendations get you in, rather than leadership skills hence why I stated VMI.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Hulk,
I don't know where you get this information but it is not accurate. My son is the first in our family, on either side, to attend West Point. Also, there are many of his classmates that are the first in their families to attend. So no nepotism in our case. Yes it helps if one of your parents or grandparents attended, but I bet that is the same for many top colleges including VMI.</p>
<p>Hmmmmm...don't you need excellent grades and recommendations to get into Harvard, Yale, etc? Seems to me there is nothing wrong with West Point requiring these too. </p>
<p>You are entitled to your opinion but you might want to get some facts before you post that opinion as a fact.</p>
<p>Hulk,
I really hate responding to you, as ignorance usually deserves no response. However, you might not be aware that West Point looks for the "total package." What do you consider profound grades? I know of several cadets whose GPA's range from 3.0-3.6--do you consider that "profound"? Are there cadets at WP with higher GPA's? Absolutely...but there are some who have average grades. Were they amazing leaders? Maybe, maybe not; perhaps team captains or Eagle scouts...what you need to realize is that WP is looking for a good mix of well-rounded students. Some are the very top at their schools, others are not. The information you are promulgating is just not accurate. You really should just not speak of things you do not know. </p>
<p>"Even a fool is thought to be wise when his mouth is shut."</p>
<p>VMI ceased to become an effictive source for military officers when it failed to welcome the admission of women and as such will receive no automatic respect from me as will the other SAs. Reluctant compliance does not solve the issue.</p>
<p>Yes I am incapable of appreciating that the proper method of training officers is to exclude one portion of them.</p>
<p>I think we've hit on this before in other threads, but no one commissioning source has the 'answer key' to leadership. It all depends on the individual as there are plenty of UMSA grads that are turds and plenty of ROTC/OCS grads that are studs. What I think everyone needs to realize, and accept, that will make us all get along better, is that the SAs provide the best RESOURCES to set a future officer up for success. Plainly stated, if you graduate from an SA and are not fully prepared, you have no one to blame besides yourself, whereas if you were an ROTC grad, you might have a legitimate excuse in that something wasnt taught to you in pre commisioning. Everyone is going to want to jump on somebody who brings up something that is unpopular; but I appreciate the educated, well thought out responses that USNA69 and keydet brought to this light, that is what makes this place such a valuable resource. Keep up the fire</p>
<p>06:15 PM #46<br>
USNA69<br>
-"VMI ceased to become an effictive source for military officers when it failed to welcome the admission of women and as such will receive no automatic respect from me as will the other SAs. Reluctant compliance does not solve the issue.
Yes I am incapable of appreciating that the proper method of training officers is to exclude one portion of them. "</p>
<p>Imagine my shock and disappointment at this unusual post- USNA69 doesn't approve.Well there goes the ball game. Well -maybe we'll manage to cope without his approval.</p>
<p>wpmom2011- if you had clearly read my outlook on why VMI or even WP male cadets look down upon females you would see that I wasn't speaking about everyone but just a accepted attitude. Don't portray me to be some sort of misogynist or sexist, and please read the text with clarity before calling me out for heresay. Offcourse that are fully capable females that can adhere to the physical demand some jobs in the military offers, but relatively speaking, you and I both know males excel more. That was my only objective in giving that brief statement.</p>
<p>keydet- let me first say that one, I find it rather dismal and repulsive for you to conjure up the conclusion that all of my information comes from so-called 3rd and 4th hand info. Secondly, I don't mean to sound condescending but I have 3 WPs and 2 VMI grads in my family tree so please refrain from the "clueless mentality." </p>
<p>WAMOM68- I never said I was referring to everyone, it was just a general generalization of the trend that is happening, kinda like how GW Bush got into Yale. And I meant to say nepotism rather than grades, mistake on my part.</p>
<p>mom3boys- you are throwing out fallacious attacks at me like I don't know what is going on in these colleges, but look who's the mother and who is the student. You claim to know what happens, but know nothing.</p>
<p>Hulk, keydet. Keydet, HulkHogan. Apparently your family trees are in the same patch of woods. Go at it. And while you are there, maybe you can explain your being on a ** Service Academy** forum. A different forest altogether.</p>
<p>I don't have to portray you as a misogynist or sexist, you already have, using your own words. Maybe you should go back and read what you wrote. </p>
<p>An "accepted attitude" of looking down on females? You will never see that at WP. And that's a fact!</p>
<p>Heresay is taking someone else's word as fact. Isn't that what you're doing?</p>
<p>And as to this quote, "relatively speaking, you and I both know males excel more." Do NOT presume to tell me what I know! I have three children, 2 sons and a daughter. What I know is that my daughter has no trouble at all keeping up with and exceeding anything her brothers do. She is one of many smart, talented, young women that are attending West Point and the other SA's who because of neanderthal attitudes like yours, are still having to put up with this kind of rhetoric while successfully completing the same academic and military program as their male counterparts - proving that they most assuredly belong there. A warrior's brawn may win the battle, but without brains he'd be fighting in the wrong place. You may not want to research males and females intelligence statistics, you'd have to eat your words.</p>
<p>It's just plain sad that you actually believe what you're saying. And to think that one day my daughter is going to fight and maybe die for you to have the right to disparage her.</p>
<p>I've been trying to refrain from trolling further, but wpmom2011 you are so eager to put words in my mouth that I didn't say. It's scientifically proven that when speaking about physical attributes and excellence, a average man outshines a female. I never said anything about schoolwork,etc. And how is it heresay when I have attended exercises at both schools, could that be the same for a mother? And you do realize that combat units exclude females right? I say heresay!!! Enough with the fallacious rhetoric, and leave it at that. I think I'm right, you somehow think you are right. Lets all assimilate this quote, and be done with it:</p>
<p>" In the heat of battle a man only has 3 things: his brains, his arms, and his compassion."</p>
<p>Please don't bring up fallen grads to try to legitimize your point. </p>
<p>HulkHogan - I agree with you originally that VMI is tougher in many aspects. Their fourth class system is definitely a lot more brutal, and there is no real arguement to that. Does it mean by excessive hazing these cadets will turn out as better officers. I doubt it. Like ScreamingEagle said, WP provides the most resources out of any comissioning source. There are just as many good officers coming out of WP as there are rotc, vmi, ocs etc.</p>
<p>Wpmom2011- how dare you stoop so low as to bring up fallen soldiers to defend your pathetic thesis. I repeat, reading is fundamental.</p>
<p>My original statement:</p>
<p>Offcourse that are fully capable females that can adhere to the physical demand some jobs in the military offers, but relatively speaking, you and I both know males excel more. That was my only objective in giving that brief statement.</p>
<p>Notice where I said physical demand. It was in reference and in conjunction with excelling. Please stop with this blasphemy of an excuse to defend what lack of civility you have shown on these boards, better yet just except the humility and don't post anymore.</p>
<p>You have already done enough by posting up fallen comrades in battle. Do you have any shame?</p>
<p>I hope this is my last post on the matter, and sorry to all readers and writers for clogging it up with this rediculous debacle.</p>
<p>"It's scientifically proven that when speaking about physical attributes and excellence, a average man outshines a female."</p>
<p>I really must check here more often---TWO good laughs in one week!!!!!!</p>
<p>An "average" man or woman couldn't even get into West Point or one of the other SA's, and women have been in combat for a while now, both in the air and on the ground, regardless of any current "policy" about their official assignment (look for those policies to change as well.) I still remember my cadet telling me about women at WP who were smoking the "average" male cadet on the APFT, irregardless of whether you scored them as a man or woman. As far as WPmom bringing up the two WP cadets that fell in Iraq and Afganistan, you need to cut her some slack--your comments did more to hurt their cause and that of the other female WP'ers than any moral outrage you could stir up about her post.</p>
<p>" In the heat of battle a man only has 3 things: his brains, his arms, and his compassion."-----I know which one of those 3 attributes counts more in an officer as far as her troopers are concerned.</p>
<p>Hulk, it sounds like you have some growing up to do there, sir.</p>
