<p>Seems the new Comm. has done away with hazing altogether. Talked to my Yuk yesterday and she is not happy. She says that this batch of plebes are getting away with way too much and their lack of discipline is appalling. </p>
<p>Anyone else heard anything.</p>
<p>Yes, there have been some changes....However, I have faith that the Corps will work it out.</p>
<p>That's funny that she says that; I've heard other upperclassman state that this bunch of plebes is very "squared away." The comm does not want them being screamed at, but there still is yelling and plenty of pushups. I guess it depends on the company...my son is being "well-managed."</p>
<p>mom3boys: Yes, it is always a slippery slope when one makes broad generalizations. There will always be plebes who are squared away and those who have much to learn, those who are disciplined and those who are not.
The new comm has made a lot of changes with regard to "hazing" no doubt about it.</p>
<p>My Yuk tends to believe that the new comm is a bit soft on the plebes as well..... my understanding is that 5 cadet company commanders were relieved on day 1 of reorgy because of excess hazing.... Excess hazing with a definition of yelling at the plebes and dropping them in the barracks hallways..... New comm no longer allows dropping plebes indoors.....Extra monitors for laptops were an upperclass privelage, now plebes are issued extra monitors....Ha Ha, truly these terrible offenses against corpdom can only mean one thing.....The corp has truly gone to ......</p>
<p>He has made many changes and there are many in the Corps who are not pleased. These people are working quite hard to find ways to train the Plebes in accordance with the Commandant's guidance. It has been very interesting to watch...</p>
<p>mom3boys...sorry to post this here~I sent you a private message, but your box is full.</p>
<p>It is funny to see the same "story" told and retold from different perspectives. The rumor mill is alive and well at West Point!
From a parent perspective it is rather humorous. I learned long ago to take my kids' grumblings with a grain of salt.</p>
<p>Keep in mind - the Commandant was very visible all summer. He has had an opportunity to "get to know" the plebe class and "bond" with them. He ran with them, rucked with them and rode in a Chinook with them. I get the impression that he will continue to remain very visible - perhaps he will "get to know" the upperclass and "bond" with them as well.</p>
<p>I am sure when the first class of plebes was issued laptops there was an outcry from the upperclass who had desktops. If it makes you feel any better they got printers but no cables for the printers. The cadet store did not have 1300 cables in stock. I am sure that if the plebe class next year is issued wireless printers there will be a similar outcry.</p>
<p>frijoles - Oh to be a fly on the wall!</p>
<p>I concur with justamomof4. </p>
<p>The same kinder, gentler, 'too soft on plebes' Commandant suddenly becomes the draconian Commandant who relieves five cadet CO's on the first day of Reorg. week (Pretty rough given that that's the first day of the cadet CO's duites). Guess he has a dual standard when it comes to the treatment of plebes and firsties.</p>
<p>For new parents, please don't react too strongly (positively or negatively) to posted rumors and 'absolutely, without a question, facts'. Cadets seldom have a fully informed, unbiased grasp on the events taking place within their cadet company, and an even less reliable view on events taking place outside their company.</p>
<p>The fact is that changes have been made. No rumour there. As it has in the past, the Corps will adapt to the changes and goals and standards will be met.
As for the Yuks being unhappy with the status quo - that is not surprising. Plebe parents be warned. Your cadets will feel the same way next year when changes are made ;)
I have faith in the system - it has worked for over 200 years...</p>
<p>
[quote]
As for the Yuks being unhappy with the status quo - that is not surprising.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Comment from my yearling son on the phone this weekend...
"Now I know why we are yuks!" :D</p>
<p>I believe the full phrase is "bitter yuks".... :)</p>
<p>In the combined almost 400 year history of the two Academies, there has never been a single yuk/youngster who did not think the following plebe class got off easier than they.</p>
<p>Justamom and aspen.... do not get all upset.... my previous post was made in jest and not as a criticism of the new comm - more of an attempt to make light of my own son's very yearling like attitude.... My personal observations of the new comm is that he is energetic and very involved....He is also concentrating on leadership principles and away from the haze for haze and tradition sake.....Having said that...the plebe experience is somewhat different than last years class' experience just as all previous classes have had their own experience.... Probably not as physically demanding but probably way more professional in style and attitude....The Cadre seems to have completed their duty very well. The current plebe class had a remarkably high retention rate through beast.</p>
<p>From what I have seen for the most part though it is not the yuks who are angry over the changes..</p>
<p>to clarify.....there has not been any hazing at west point in quite a few years, i believe they did away with that once and for all back in the mid 90s. Also, the memo about corrective training came down this week, and pushups have not been outlawed indoors. As far as the Comm coming down hard on people, he has made it perfectly clear that we are here to learn to lead soldiers and that screaming at and demeaning soldiers simply will not fly in the army. Yes, many cadets are upset, because "we had to do it, so they should to", yet each class here has avoided hardships that those before them had been through. For example, one might ask the class of 2011 why the class of 2012 had to sleep in the field for a week during beast when 2011 spent that week int he bays at buckner. Or one might ask a member of 2010 why the class of 2012 rucked more miles at beast than they did. The list goes on and on. To scream and yell in a demeaning manner generally doesnt teach the subbordinate nearly as much as calm, stern corrections do, and isnt that the reason we're all here? to learn? And trust me, there is still yelling, corrections are still being made, and there are both squared away and scumbag plebes. This change simply forces people in a leadership postition to do that......lead, and to do so in a way that "trains educates and inspires" their subbordinates as opposed to"scaring" and "inspiring hatred against himself"(remember schofield?). Change is nothing new here, people will get used to these changes just as they have gotten used to every other change, and I think most reasonable people here view this as a positive change.</p>
<p>"Hazing" has been "outlawed " numerous times throughout the academy's history. The definition of "hazing" has probably changed as many times as it's been outlawed. The army doesn't need newly mineted officers from West Point treating young enlisted or ROTC trained officers in the field like they were all still at the academy---Pershing tried that during WW1 with his army that had been civilians just weeks and months before and generated a lot of resentment for it.</p>
<p>It is important for folks who read this forum - (future, current applicants and their parents) to understand that "Hazing" at West Point does not have the same connotation as it does in the outside world. When my daughter visited with a plebe - she came out talking about "Hazing". The look on my face prompted her to explain that "Hazing" isn't "hazing" - the cadets just call it that.</p>
<p>Many/most states and schools have clear legal definitions of "Hazing" - the old days of "fraternity hazing" are gone. </p>
<p>When a West Point cadet refers to hazing, being hazed - what they mean is the act of correction. There are limitations of how and when they can haze.</p>
<p>If a officer in training relies on correction through "Hazing" this will work at the academy because the plebes will do it. Although some won't and will drop out - a process of "weeding out". Out in the "real" army this type of motivation will not work.
A good book to read on motivating enlisted troops is "This Man's Army" by Andrew Exum.</p>
<p>For what it is worth, West Point replaced the 4th class system (which relied on "hazing") with the 4 class system (cadet leader development system) years ago. This is not new.</p>
<p>USMA</a> Admissions: FAQs: About Cadet Life</p>
<p>Q: What is the Cadet Leader Development System like?
The Cadet Leader Development System is a demanding but professional four-year program to develop leaders of character. In order to be a successful leader, you first must learn to follow. During your first year at West Point you do just that.
The Leader Development Program prescribes the relationship between you as a plebe and upper class cadets. As a plebe, you must be able to recall an accumulation of information with precision. You may receive constructive criticism at times during Cadet Basic Training, but upperclass cadets will not treat you in a demeaning manner. You will also carry out specific tasks in your company during your plebe year.
During each succeeding year at West Point, you receive progressive leadership responsibilities, using those cadet experiences to hone your leadership skills. You learn how to be a team leader during the second year at West Point, guiding two or three cadets in your company.
In your third year, leadership responsibilities are expanded, helping you learn more about senior noncommissioned officer duties in the U.S. Army. This prepares you for cadet officer responsibility during your senior year. You learn what it takes to lead larger groups. It also prepares you for platoon leadership responsibilities as a lieutenant in the U.S. Army.</p>
<p>Wow, great post mfs542000! It is wonderful and fresh to hear this from the perspective of a current insider. I keep reminding my Plebe that upperclassmen are still learning the ropes of leadership styles themselves... that they are learning and experimenting with what works and what doesn't to motivate, inspire, and encourage the cadets under their command. What motivates one cadet may totally turn off another. It is a fine line of learning, I am sure. </p>
<p>When I was in high school at a Teen 4-H Retreat, I took a "TP (Task/People) Leadership Style" Quiz which when scored, evaluated individuals ideals toward people and tasks. I leaned very heavily toward the People side of the profile, indicating that I was more concerned about people's feelings and their comfort zones than the Tasks being completed properly. Others in our group leaned heavily toward the Tasks-side. They were goal-oriented to complete tasks but at the potential expense of alienating their peers. Then there were those whose scores fell in-between, with better balance of the two ideals. </p>
<p>As you can imagine, there is a great difference in the way these two main groups interact with each other as leaders and as followers, depending on the situation. A heavy task-guy really does not care that someone may get their feelings hurt as long as the job is done correctly in a timely manner. To the task guy, yelling and screaming may be the only way he knows to motivate to complete the task because it worked for him. A heavy people-guy (me) does not like to be yelled and screamed at and is going to try to do the job correctly because that is pleasing to the one in command. They make sure they lead in a way that values the person over the job at hand. That can have its downside too, if tasks are forfeited in the process. I believe this balance is what our service academies are striving to teach our young leaders before they must take command in the field. </p>
<p>I've reminded said Plebe that when the more sensitive souls of us in the world become "conditioned" to hearing the yelling or stern corrections, they are not as noticeable as they were in the beginning! That said, I am continually more and more impressed with the thoughts and methods that go into training these young men and women to serve as leaders with integrity in a difficult world. The Corps Has.....? Maybe in some respects, but then the wars we are fighting are much different than they were in the past as well.</p>
<p>JustAMom, I'm keeping my eyes peeled for that book!</p>