The Cons of BS/MD

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
21

<p>I wont lie to you, but yes most of these programs probably do

[quote]
exploit the insecurities of a 17 year old in order to try to lure them to a place they wouldn't otherwise want to be.

[/quote]
Most of us would not have even thought about the school if it wasnt for their programs. But applying to these programs and doing their interviews at least has given me much experience about the medical process and how tough it really is. we do two applications- first one for the undergrad and then if you qualify another for the med program, which you can say is kinda like the pre secondaries and post secondaries apps that you have to do. Following that, we have the med interview. for me, it was 3 medical doctors/ professors with 1 med student questioning about why medicine, your future motives, and hypothetical ethical questions. All in all, im just telling you that if you are still interested in going into the medical field, it will be worthwhile to apply. Plus they usually give you a tour of med center and the cadavers if you qualify for the interview. However, whether you want to decide and go into the program is really up to you and how confident you are that you will get into another medical school
Just my 2 Cents.</p>

22

<p>getting into a 6/7/8 year med program right out of high school is your best bet because there is no guarantee that you will even get into med school once you do undergrad because of whatever reasons.</p>

23

<p>Mdamebovary, I completely agree. The application experience which includes interviews is invaluable and getting into the program is very worthwhile, especially if it is at the school that you wanted to go anyway that gave you almost full tuition and promise of small classes and very special attention and guidenance. It is just another indication of this specific college that they really want you, it makes you feel very recognized and welcomed.</p>

24

<p>Ah, yes, I wish my school had offered better guidenance.</p>

25

<p>I concur. Most of the students who have selected to opt for combined BS/MD programs were also accepted in other Ivy and/or equivalent schools.</p>

<p>If it were not for the direct admission to MD, I have no doubt most of these kids would have selected alternate options.</p>

26

<p>There are no pros to the BS/MD thing.</p>

<p>You end up with a whole bunch of inmature people that are not quiet ready emotionally to be doctors...and everything else that goes along with that.</p>

27

<p>
[quote]
IMO, the biggest con is that you're locked to one MEDICAL SCHOOL...you will be in the same place for the next 7 years

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</p>

<p>
[quote]
1) Locked in - has been mentioned. NCG has pretty much hit the nail on the head, but to further expand...every medical student knows there is a ton of attrition between freshman year and actually matriculating into a medical school. People quit for all kinds of reasons from not being smart enough to finding out they really don't like chemistry that much when they have a prof they don't like to finding some other profession that is far more enticing to you. In an accelerated or combined program what happens when you find these things out?

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</p>

<p>I now see that this point has been mentioned several times before, and I have to question it. What exactly do you mean by "locked in"? I highly doubt that that's legally possible. No program can literally lock you in. This isn't jail. This isn't slavery. If you enter the program and find out that you don't like it or don't want to be a doctor, you just drop out of it, and either switch to the regular undergrad program at that school, or transfer to a completely different school. </p>

<p>Nor does it seem to me that any of these BS/MD programs can legally prevent you from applying to other med schools. They may choose to revoke your exist med-school guarantee (although I would say that even that's not entirely assured), or even boot you out of the program entirely, hence, converting you to just a regular undergrad at that school, but I doubt that any school could actually legally stop you from applying to other medical schools. </p>

<p>If anything, it would seem to me that this leads to a strategy involving 'options value'. If you are getting excellent undergraduate grades and earn a top MCAT score, then you may well decide to drop out of your current BS/MD programs so that you can apply to other, better med schools. But if your grades and your MCAT scores are mediocre (but still good enough to retain eligibility in the program), then you just stay and take the guarantee. This works like a 'real option' - you have the right, but not the obligation, to stay in the program. No program can legally force you to stay.</p>

28

<p>
[quote]
I concur. Most of the students who have selected to opt for combined BS/MD programs were also accepted in other Ivy and/or equivalent schools.</p>

<p>If it were not for the direct admission to MD, I have no doubt most of these kids would have selected alternate options.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
BS/MD programs annoy me on principle: they're bait for overqualified kids who are compromising their desires.

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</p>

<p>Well, yeah, but that just goes without saying, and is a rather unfair criticism. That's the explicit tradeoff that you are making - a med-school guarantee in return for a less prominent undergrad school. </p>

<p>I don't see anything particularly wrong with that. That happens all the time. For example, some schools give out merit scholarships, and the reasoning is quite clear: they are attempting to lure students who would have otherwise gone to better schools. I know somebody who turned down Harvard to go to a state school because it gave her a full merit ride + stipend. If that school hadn't offered her that ride, then of course she would have gone to Harvard. I see nothing wrong in principle with parties making such a trade. The basic principles of economics dictate that both sides of a transaction will benefit. </p>

<p>
[quote]
You end up with a whole bunch of inmature people that are not quiet ready emotionally to be doctors...and everything else that goes along with that.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, well, the same could be said for all of the regular premed programs out there. Believe me, they're filled with plenty of immature people who aren't quite ready to be doctors either. </p>

<p>
[quote]
2.) It's absurd to compare yourself to normal students, because you're not normal students. If your odds were going to jump from 50% to 100%, then hey, these would be the best programs ever.</p>

<p>But your odds were always going to be higher than 50%, otherwise they wouldn't have offered you the spot. That's why it's an absurd baiting tactic. They try so hard to scare you, as if it's a lottery, when they know and you should know that your odds are much higher than that. They're exploiting the insecurities of talented seventeen year olds to lure them to a school which they don't otherwise want to be at.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Now, here I can agree is some legitimate criticism. If the BS/MD programs are overhyping fear, then that's clearly wrong.</p>

<p>However, the truth of the matter is, there is in fact something to be afraid of. As the old saying goes: 'Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they're not out to get you.' The truth of the matter is, even at the best undergrad programs, some premeds will not get into any med schools. I agree that the relevent metric is not 50%, but it's clearly not 100% either. I seem to recall reading a story of one premed at Harvard who applied to all 125 med schools in the country...and got rejected from all of them. </p>

<p>Look, I think we have to appreciate the fact that most people are risk averse. There's nothing wrong with that. That's just how people are. Psychologically speaking, there is a quite big difference between something that is 90% likely to happen and something that is 100% guaranteed to happen. For example, I suspect most people would take a guaranteed 100% certainty of getting $1 million rather than take a 90% chance of getting $1.5 million, if, for no other reason, because if that dreaded 10% chance does occur, they know they would spend the rest of their lives regretting their choice of not taking that guaranteed million. This is especially true when I think most of us agree that the difference between the best and worst med school in the country is not very large. You can have a highly successful medical career even if you graduated from the #125 med school. </p>

<p>Look, I'm sure it's true that some people who took BS/MD admissions might have been better off by just going to a regular (presumably better) undergrad program instead. But the converse is also true. There are premeds at Harvard who don't get in anywhere who probably wished they had entered a BS/MD program instead, because then at least they woud have gone to med school. Hence, it's not clear to me that the terms of the trade are slanted one way or another.</p>

29

<p>Sakky, very accurate analysis. I personally know Ivy leaguers that did not get to Med. school. My home town (not any highly ranked) Med. school averages 3500 applications / year, grants 400 interviews and accepts somewhat over 100. Ivy leaguer (Duke, GPA = 3.7, do not know MCAT score) was not granted an interview there. There is an indication that it is getting more competitive from year to year. If someone is offerred a chance to avoid all this stress, why not to take it? In addition, a lot of BS/MDs will not have stats to be offerred a spot in Ivy League and for some of them Ivy's or any big name's are simply not attractive with no tangible benefits, overblown tuition and extremely slim chance of getting ANY ACADEMIC scholarship that all of these very hard working people truly deserve.</p>

30

<p>um just because you guys are going the normal 8 year route doesn't give you the prerogative to criticize the bs/md program like that.</p>

31

<p>I had the choice and looked closely at the pros and cons. My parents were pushing me for the BS/MD because "then u will not have all the stress of applying and not getting in....etc, etc.."</p>

<p>At the end, the decision is all based on personal reasons:
- I did not want to be stuck in the same place for 7 years. I wnated to have a "choice"
-Having the "choice" was not giving me any anxiety for the future. The opposite ( eventhough my mom is having a heart attack )
-Med school is hard, i wanted to be able to enjoy to some extent my college experience. Take subjects that I enjoyed, do a little research, etc. Cutting a year of my educational experience was not very appealing.
-My father did his BS/MD in 6 years. He hated it. All he did was crammed the first two years while most people were attending games, going to parties and even doing some traveling abroad.</p>

<p>I got into a few ivies and was "guaranteed" admission at two BS/Md Programs..But.... I am doing the regular route....It was the right decision for me.</p>

32

<p>1.) MDAP is using anecdotal evidence. (Notice I am not here criticizing sakky's argument.) I got rejected from my lowest-ranked state school without even an interview as well for no obvious reason. You can't toss around single stories like this. Medical schools routinely reject overqualified candidates because they believe they'll get in someplace else.</p>

<p>2.) I would argue -- and I feel pretty strongly about this -- that very, very few Harvard premeds (certainly nowhere near 1%, much less the 9% that probably actually happens) should be getting rejected from medical school completely. I suspect that almost invariably, they are screwing up the process itself rather than being underqualified. (For example, by applying to all 125 schools, which will kill your ability to write decent essays on a reasonable timetable.)</p>

<p>3.) I think GS's point in post #20 is particularly concerning. I hear lots of talk of these programs "offering" things which turn out to be straw men. The ability to major in anything, for example. Or the ability to go after a dual degree.</p>

<p>4.) And, again. If I heard premeds saying, "Look, that 10% is very important to me," then I'd simply respond, "I think your preferences vary significantly from mine, so much so that I'm not really sure I understand." But I don't. I hear them saying, "My chances at medical school are less than 50%."</p>

33

<p>
[quote]
I did not want to be stuck in the same place for 7 years. I wnated to have a "choice"
-Having the "choice" was not giving me any anxiety for the future. The opposite ( eventhough my mom is having a heart attack

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Regarding the notion of 'choice', see my previous posts. No program can legally lock you in. If you really want to leave, you can leave. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Med school is hard, i wanted to be able to enjoy to some extent my college experience. Take subjects that I enjoyed, do a little research, etc. Cutting a year of my educational experience was not very appealing.
-My father did his BS/MD in 6 years. He hated it. All he did was crammed the first two years while most people were attending games, going to parties and even doing some traveling abroad.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Along the lines of above, it would seem to me that you can probably request to take time off in the interim. Again, in extreme cases, that might ultimately mean having to leave the program (although probably not), but nevertheless if you really really want time off, you can always get it. Nobody can force you to stay for the entire program. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Medical schools routinely reject overqualified candidates because they believe they'll get in someplace else.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would actually say that that actually reinforces the value of the BS/MD programs. If nothing else, it lets you avoid the whims and idiosyncracies of the regular admissions process At the end of the day, med-school admissions have an element of luck to them: you can be highly qualified and nevertheless still get rejected from every med school you apply to just because you're unlucky. BS/MD programs remove that possibility and makes the process straightforward: you keep yourself eligible in the program, and you're guaranteed to get into med-school. From a risk aversion standpoint, that is valuable. </p>

<p>Think of it like insurance. The value of insurance is that it protects you from the consequences of bad luck. That clearly has value, and that's why people are willing to pay for insurance. </p>

<p>
[quote]
suspect that almost invariably, they are screwing up the process itself rather than being underqualified. (For example, by applying to all 125 schools, which will kill your ability to write decent essays on a reasonable timetable.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yeah, they're probably screwing up the process. But, again, that just seems to reinforce the value of the BS/MD process as, if nothing else, it removes the possibility that you will screw up the process. All you have to do is stay eligible (usually meaning to maintain a certain GPA and score a certain value on the MCAT), and you're in. Hence, the process becomes straightforward. </p>

<p>
[quote]
2.) I would argue -- and I feel pretty strongly about this -- that very, very few Harvard premeds (certainly nowhere near 1%, much less the 9% that probably actually happens) should be getting rejected from medical school completely. I suspect that almost invariably, they are screwing up the process itself rather than being underqualified. (For example, by applying to all 125 schools, which will kill your ability to write decent essays on a reasonable timetable.)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
.) And, again. If I heard premeds saying, "Look, that 10% is very important to me," then I'd simply respond, "I think your preferences vary significantly from mine, so much so that I'm not really sure I understand." But I don't. I hear them saying, "My chances at medical school are less than 50%."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I would couch it in these terms. At any school, including Harvard, plenty of premeds won't even apply to med school because they know they won't get in. Hence, if we were to add in those students, we would find that the chances of any particular student to get into med school are conspicuously lowered. </p>

<p>Now, granted, many of these BS/MD programs maintain eligibility requirements. But usually those requirements are not highly stringent. For example, I was just reading about the program at Kent State and it requires that you earn a 3.25 GPA and an 8 on each section of the MCAT. But, honestly, those stats really aren't that good. If you were to go to Harvard and had gotten stats like that, you probably wouldn't get into any medical school.</p>

34

<p>Well, but that strikes me as silly: to pick a less-desirable college because you're afraid you'll mess up on what is essentially paperwork. Just do the paperwork right.</p>

<p>Two points about attrition. First, according to the percentage of Duke students who declare themselves premeds entering college and the percentage of Duke students applying to medical school afterwards, Duke actually gains premeds over time.</p>

<p>This is an imperfect argument for two obvious reasons: (1) The "incoming" statistic may be somewhat flawed, (2) we have a net gain but might have a gross loss.</p>

<p>I still think it's important to note, however, that this is a hint<a href="not%20an%20airtight%20proof,%20I%20know">/I</a> that attrition *may be lower than we think.</p>

<p>Second, the relevant proportion (again) isn't Harvard students. The relevant proportion is Harvard students who could have gotten into a BS/MD program. Some of those programs have much harder entry requirements than Harvard. Admittedly, some others don't. But the point is: I suspect BS/MD admits have a lower-than-otherwise attrition rate once they get into Harvard.</p>

<p>(Substitute Harvard for whatever school we're actually talking about.)</p>

35

<p>
[quote]
Well, but that strikes me as silly: to pick a less-desirable college because you're afraid you'll mess up on what is essentially paperwork. Just do the paperwork right.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, no, that's a straw man there. You even admitted that you didn't know why you didn't get admitted to that one low-ranked state school. I assume it wasn't because you messed up on paperwork. </p>

<p>And that gets down to risk aversion once again. The fact is, as your story illustrates, you can do everything right...and get rejected anyway. The BS/MD programs eliminate that possibility. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Second, the relevant proportion (again) isn't Harvard students. The relevant proportion is Harvard students who could have gotten into a BS/MD program. Some of those programs have much harder entry requirements than Harvard. Admittedly, some others don't. But the point is: I suspect BS/MD admits have a lower-than-otherwise attrition rate once they get into Harvard.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, this point may be true, but only because it is endogenous, and again points to another advantage of BS/MD programs. When you go to Harvard (or any other school with no BS/MD program), and you want to go to med-school, you will probably strongly overcompensate in the effort that you put in. And your premed years will be a time of perennial stress. That's because, since you don't know exactly what you need to do to get into med school, you will always be looking to improve your application, whether that be spending time gaining clinical experience, or performing research projects, or worrying about getting better rec's or so forth. Yet you know that you could do all those things, and still not get in anywhere. There is great uncertainly about the information regarding what is actually required for you to get in.</p>

<p>BS/MD programs are different. You know exactly * what you need to do to stay eligible. *Exactly. Hence, the uncertainty of the information is precisely zero. You know what you need to do. The school can't just turn around and say "Well, you met our requirements, but there was some other candidate who we deemed to be better than you, so we're admitting him and rejecting you." </p>

<p>I have seen other posters argue that BS/MD programs are more stressful than regular BS programs. I would actually argue that the reverse is true - that they are actually *less *stressful, precisely because you always know exactly what you need to do to get admitted, and so you always know where you stand. You never have to worry about overcompensating because you're worried that you will get beaten out by somebody else. For example, to take that Kent State BS/MD program: if you got a 4.0 in your first 2 years of coursework, then you know that even if you got straight C's in your 3rd and final year, you'd end up with 3.33 GPA and that would be good enough to reach the required threshold (3.25). Hence, what that basically means is that you can basically cruise in your 3rd year. That to me is the definition of lowered stress.</p>

36

<p>actually according to a few friends who went to BS/MD programs, the reduced stress comes back to haunt students. Many students can get away with a few hours a studying and relaxing in weekends to get into the programs. Since the GPA requirement is usually low (3.2-3.3ish) many of the BS/MD students can get away with a few hours of studying a day and partying on weekends to pull off the minimum GPA.</p>

<p>Fast forward to medical school where it seems like it is a contest as to who can study the longest and latest comes as a cultural shock for medical students. Students who grind it out in premed are already used to studying hard and long 7 days a week make the adjustment nicely. </p>

<p>With increasing requirement for doctors to do research, BS/MD students are likely to be behind the curve in that category. BS/MD programs usually don't require research and obviously research that they did in high school is a joke compared to college research or post-grad research that most med students engage in.</p>

<p>Lastly, like many have mentioned, most of the medical schools are affiliated with mediocre medical schools. Although medical school doesn't count in the workplace, it makes it more difficult for BS/MD students to enter the competitive residencies. US Medical Schools are increasing enrollment without increasing residency slots, which will make the popular residencies even more competitive in the future.</p>

37

<p>
[quote]
actually according to a few friends who went to BS/MD programs, the reduced stress comes back to haunt students. Many students can get away with a few hours a studying and relaxing in weekends to get into the programs. Since the GPA requirement is usually low (3.2-3.3ish) many of the BS/MD students can get away with a few hours of studying a day and partying on weekends to pull off the minimum GPA.</p>

<p>Fast forward to medical school where it seems like it is a contest as to who can study the longest and latest comes as a cultural shock for medical students. Students who grind it out in premed are already used to studying hard and long 7 days a week make the adjustment nicely.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Fair enough, I can agree somewhat that the reduced stress of BS/MD programs might cause you to slack off, hence causing you to do worse when you actually go to med school. But that only reinforces what I said before - that the undergraduate portion of BS/MD programs is actually less stressful than being a regular premed at a regular school. I would argue that it's better to go to med school and do poorly than to not even get into med school at all. </p>

<p>
[quote]
With increasing requirement for doctors to do research, BS/MD students are likely to be behind the curve in that category. BS/MD programs usually don't require research and obviously research that they did in high school is a joke compared to college research or post-grad research that most med students engage in.</p>

<p>Lastly, like many have mentioned, most of the medical schools are affiliated with mediocre medical schools. Although medical school doesn't count in the workplace, it makes it more difficult for BS/MD students to enter the competitive residencies. US Medical Schools are increasing enrollment without increasing residency slots, which will make the popular residencies even more competitive in the future

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Like I said, it seems to me that the way to combat that is to keep your options open as far as applying to other med schools. Again, nobody can force you to stay in a BS/MD program. If get good grades and a good MCAT score, you can always drop out of your program to apply to other med schools. And with that in mind, you'll probably be doing the research that will keep you competitive later on for the top residencies. It will also help to combat the laziness factor. </p>

<p>Look, don't get me wrong. I am not saying that BS/MD programs are for everybody. I am simply saying that that guarantee of MD admissions does hold significant value. The truth of the matter is that regular MD admissions is highly arbitrary, as bluedevilmike's state school experience illustrates. You can do everything right, and get rejected anyway.</p>

38

<p>I personally have a lot of faith in the premed process (of course, this is before med school decisions come out; we'll see if I feel the same way in 8 months). Obviously, you may not get into an individual school due to a bad interview or something subjective like that but for the most part, if you have decent stats (3.6, 30) you will get into at least one med school provided that you approach the application process intelligently.</p>

<p>Doctors are saddled with enormous responsibility. I would want my doctor to have survived the most rigorous training and to be held to the highest standards and I would expect the same expectations to be levied upon myself as a premed. Maybe if you are one of the 80% that drop out of premed, you were never meant to be a doctor. I don't think it's wise for medical schools to give HSers an early acceptance based on high school achievements nor do I think it is fair to the high schoolers to demand that they commit to a profession at such an early age. </p>

<p>I feel that I have learned a lot and matured through my soon-to-be five years of premed and have gained a perspective that differs remarkably from what I had five years ago. I, for one, am grateful for the rigor and stress of premed and its associated high attrition rates and I feel fortunate not bitter to have gone through the normal process.</p>

39

<p>
[quote]
regular MD admissions is highly arbitrary

[/quote]

At any given school. Not overall. Diversification is very powerful.</p>

40

<p>
[quote]
if you have decent stats (3.6, 30)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, that's a pretty big 'if', don't you think? Let's face it. A lot of premeds (in fact, most) don't have stats like that. And at many of those BS/MD programs, you don't need stats like that to stay eligible. Again, the Kent State program requires only a 3.25 and an 8 on each part of the MCAT. </p>

<p>
[quote]
provided that you approach the application process intelligently.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The way I would look at it is that those programs eliminate the hassle. You no longer have to worry about the process. You no longer have to primp and prepare, trying to draft a bunch of essay answers, trying to find the right suit to wear in your interview. In short, you no longer have to expend time in trying to market yourself. It's a no muss, no fuss way of getting into med school. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Doctors are saddled with enormous responsibility. I would want my doctor to have survived the most rigorous training and to be held to the highest standards and I would expect the same expectations to be levied upon myself as a premed

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, this gets into a whole 'nother subject that I have discussed at length with BDM (and perhaps you too, I can't remember). The truth is, med-school admissions are a highly arbitrary process. For example, I'd point out that, frankly, a lot of practicing doctors today, especially the older ones, probably couldn't get into med school today. Yet they're allowed to continue to practice medicine. We can talk about the impact of affirmative action. We can talk about those doctors who went to foreign med schools (i.e. in the Caribbean) and then eventually became licensed to practice in the US. Heck, even if we were to talk just about regular premed programs, the truth is, some of them are easier than others (i.e. some are more grade inflated). Somebody who flunks OChem at Caltech might have gotten a decent grade if he had just taken it at some other school. </p>

<p>The point is, there are evidently numerous paths to becoming a doctor, some of them easier or harder than others. Not every doctor had to undergo the same level of premed rigor that others did. I don't see the BS/MD programs as being any worse in this respect. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I feel that I have learned a lot and matured through my soon-to-be five years of premed and have gained a perspective that differs remarkably from what I had five years ago. I, for one, am grateful for the rigor and stress of premed and its associated high attrition rates and I feel fortunate not bitter to have gone through the normal process.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But look at what you're saying here. You're grateful and happy because you did well. Of course it's easy to be happy when you're successful. It's easy to say that you're happy about the attrition rates, * if you aren't one of the victims of attrition.* But what if you hadn't done well? What if you had fallen to attrition? I think you'd be singing a different tune. Come on, norcalguy, be honest with yourself. You know it's true. </p>

<p>
[quote]
At any given school. Not overall. Diversification is very powerful.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, that story of diversification doesn't seem to be terribly powerful if half of the premeds who apply to med school don't get in anywhere. Yes, yes, I know what you're thinking: the BS/MD students are not the average premed applicant. That's true. But that's beside the point. The point is that diversitifcation is evidently not * that * powerful, otherwise, many more premeds would actually be getting into some med school.</p>