<p>this thread makes me sad.</p>
<p>and hehe, no one has posted on the liberal and democrat thread</p>
<p>Tell me WHEN was the last time that Russian and China...with their resources...actively contributed to UN operations on the scale that the US does annually?? These are countries that are historically and ideologically opposite to Europe. They're not interested in cooperating with Europe nor do they care about the UN. Without us, the UN is nothing. </p>
<p>Bigjake holy crap you're so stupid and it's getting late to make a rebuttal to just that one sentence itself. What's really sad is that I'm a republican, but I have to associate my party with people like you.</p>
<p>This is a little bit off topic..</p>
<p>I am SO jealous (tlaktan) becuase he gets to go to the re-inauguration of Bush!</p>
<p>i agree with bigjake on that. your comments were an ad hominum attack which is not the point of this forum. While in this forum, please refrain from that. If you were that upset about something, you easily could have waited til tomorrow to try to give a rebuttal or even stayed up the extra 5 minutes to write it. Once again please refrain from ad hominum attacks in this forum.</p>
<p>Okay folks, let's calm down and be nice. This is a thread to celebrate conservative/republican beliefs and have conversations with each other. We don't have room for insults and name-calling. Friendly debate is okay, but let's keep things civil. Name-calling for any reason should not be tolerated. :)</p>
<p>I think we've been celebrating conservative/republican beliefs too much lately. Frankly, I'm sick of it. I know, I know, I'm on the wrong thread. But hear me out. To quote my Post 1945 History teacher, "So Joe McCarthy was a liar, an alcoholic, but you know, that doesn't hurt your politcal career" referring to Dubya of course. I thought it was funny and oh so true. I just have a question for all of y'all die hard republicans out there. How do you look at your President and not be embarrassed? He isn't an intellectual. He isn't a strong leader. He preaches and evangelizes instead of leading America. He obviously has not read our beloved Constitution (separation of church and state PLEASE). He wants to privatize Social Security. He wants to through people in jail for stating contrary beliefs that he and his adminstration has defined as "unamerican". I, for one, am shocked. Didn't we learn anything from the Red Scare in the '50s? Didn't we learn anything from Hoover? Now Ike. He was a good Republican (I know, oxymoron, much like compassionate conservative). What happened? Reagan and then Bush and then a brief saunter into sanity in the form of Clinton (my darling, my love) and now, a frat boy with a DWI record? Embarassing. </p>
<p>I am not one of those people who say that I'm now ashamed to be an American because I'm not. I know that America=free speech, the country where dreams can come true, where people's rights are protected. I know this, even if our president and all of your repulicans have forgotten it. My one last question: How do you live with yourselves knowing that you support such an awful administration? Dubya will go down in history as a cheater, a liar, a warmonger, a murderer. </p>
<p>I want to be president too someday. I will cheat my way to the top, I will lie to the American people, I will get Cs in college, I will ride on my parents fame. I will murderer thousands of soldiers and foreigners. I will destroy what America stands for, and my adminstration will blatantly ***t on the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.</p>
<p>Hey. I should get elected. I'll even get a second term.</p>
<p>I support GWB because of his decisions. He went to war in Iraq because it would make America safer. He didn't waver because of public opinion, like many Democracts would have. He has the same firm stances on issues like same sex marriage and tax cuts. He does what's best for America.</p>
<p>I think that his faith only adds to his effictiveness as a president. Rather than becoming a godless state, Bush does his best to ensure that Christian beliefs are reflected in his policies, while respecting the beliefs of others. </p>
<p>I certainly am not embarrased; I'm proud that Bush is not only the president, but that he won a second term with a huge margin of victory. I appreciate his hard line stance against terrorism; he understands that extreme measures are needed to protect America. The Bill of Rights. If your not a terrorist, your rights certainly aren't being trampled and you shoudn't be afraid if you don't have anything to hide. I'm proud to be a Republican, no more than ever.</p>
<p>Very well said. =)</p>
<p>alukaszewicz: That's so cute of you. You actually think he went to war in Iraq because he thought it would make America safer. No love, he's a war monger who's po'ed that his daddy didn't get Saddam Hussein...he just wanted to finnish the job. And of course he had his eye on all that oil. </p>
<p>His "firm stance on same sex marriage" is a joke. And it's ridiculous and discrimminatory. Being American, I don't support discrimmination, neither should he. </p>
<p>His faith intrudes upon his presidency. Read the Constituion. America is defined as a "godless state" but not in that negative way that you insinuated. And he doesn't respect the beliefs of others, especially Muslims.</p>
<p>You should be embarrassed. I am not a terrorist and my rights are trampled everyday. My right to even look up what I want in the library without it being reported to the government is trampled, nevermind my constitutional right to free speech. And, his "huge margin of victory"...51%? Ummm no. Check your stats. Republicans tend to fudge those a little bit. </p>
<p>And yes I'm afraid, afraid to live in a police state. I'm also afraid that 51% of America is so ****ing stupid. Get a clue. You're so naive.</p>
<p>You want to talk about embarrassment? I call a President who cheats on his wife and lies about it an embarrassment. Perhaps I could have forgiven Clinton for the affair, but lying under oath is something I am not very inclined to forgive and I am ashamed to have had a President like him.
I am proud to have a President like George W. Bush. I could freakin' care less about his DWI that occured years in the past. People make mistakes, and I understand that. At least he was honest about that. Bush is bold and takes authority--I like that in my President. Bush is working to bring more money to America's students (Although I am not a fan of "No Child Left Behind," I am happy to see an attempt at education reform). Bush is not violating the policy of separation of church and state. Of course, his religion affects his values and he is going to make decisions based off his values, but he is not bringing religion into government affairs. I also think that people are taking the separation of church and state too far. That provision in the Constitution was put there to ensure that the Pope and other significant religious figures do not receive too much power in government. It was never meant to punish someone for having religious affiliations. I hardly think you can seriously call Bush an idiot. He was a fighter pilot for crying out loud! You cannot be dumb and be a fighter pilot. It just doesn't work that way. Who freakin' cares if he messes up a word here or there. People exaggerate this problem. I'm sure most people here would mess up on words every now and then if they had to give speeches to millions of people at a time.<br>
Again, I am proud to have George W. Bush as my President. I believe Kerry would have been a laughing stock and would not have come through on most of the promises he made (especially since all of them were going to be paid for by the same tax cut of the wealthy, which wasn't even guaranteed to cover even just his health care plan). Not to mention that more people would have been out of jobs because of his raising the minimum wage when his goal was to decrease unemployment. I am embarrassed by all of the people who are unintelligent enough to protest against Bush. Really, I thought these liberals were supposed to be intelligent! I guess my only consolation is that there are more intelligent, Bush-supporting people in America than there are unintelligent ones.</p>
<p>SkepticalSenior... </p>
<p>i think you are somewhat misguided. </p>
<p>it says in the Declaration of Independence that we are ENDOWED by our creator with certain inalienable rights. In writing that, Jefferson was saying, becuase the GOVERNMENT doesn't GIVE us the rights, THEY can't take them AWAY--he believed we were born with them. The whole idea of equality and individualism stems from Christian beliefs influencing many of the people who put this country together. Obviously, it wasn't lived out as it should have been (like with slavery and whatnot)...but it set the stage for progress and leading to slavery's inevitable end. (and yes i do believe the end of slavery was inevitable with the system they put in place--it was just a matter of how long) </p>
<p>Here's an Alexander Hamilton quote: "The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature by the hand of the Divinity itself, and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power."</p>
<p>"Three millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Beside, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of Nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us."~ Patrick Henry</p>
<p>God was definitely on our founding fathers' minds. </p>
<p>The Constitution doesn't mention "God" as blatantly as the Declaration of Ind. does, but it still has religious references. Anyways, it never says the words "separation of Church and State"...all it establishes is that we are not a theocracy, and that people should be free to believe whatever they want. Nothing about having to be a Godless state?</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think we've been celebrating conservative/republican beliefs too much lately. Frankly, I'm sick of it. I know, I know, I'm on the wrong thread. But hear me out. To quote my Post 1945 History teacher, "So Joe McCarthy was a liar, an alcoholic, but you know, that doesn't hurt your politcal career" referring to Dubya of course. I thought it was funny and oh so true. I just have a question for all of y'all die hard republicans out there. How do you look at your President and not be embarrassed? He isn't an intellectual. He isn't a strong leader. He preaches and evangelizes instead of leading America.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Kinda like you're boring us now with your liberal ranting. Like always.</p>
<p>
[quote]
He obviously has not read our beloved Constitution (separation of church and state PLEASE).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You also haven't obviously read the Constitution. Please, cite the place in the Constitution where it ** explicitly ** says that the President cannot use religious beliefs as influence for his decisions. True, he's not supposed to under the ** theory ** of separation of church and state, but in a true democracy, you really can't, now can we.</p>
<p>Let's take a theoretical approach to this. We are a democracy. Duh. We are a representative democracy. We elect our leadership. Now, are we allowed to use religion as a guiding choice and factor to collectively determine the leadership of the people of America? Sure. Is it the smartest thing to do? Maybe not. Can we? Yes, we can. Are we fully aware that faith is a part of a candidate's platform? Yes. Do we still vote for him anyway? Sure. </p>
<p>Tell me, in a true democracy, can you separate church and state? That'd require oppression and repression.</p>
<p>
[quote]
He wants to privatize Social Security.
[/quote]
Tell me, then, what brilliant solution do you have to fix the current Social Security problem? I mean, think of it, what would * you * do to fix the impending chaos that is about to occur thanks to the Baby Boomer generation. More people retiring, less people to fork over the cash. Let's just leave it at that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
He wants to through people in jail for stating contrary beliefs that he and his adminstration has defined as "unamerican". I, for one, am shocked. Didn't we learn anything from the Red Scare in the '50s?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yes. Ever heard of something called Sedition, Treason, and other charges that we've had in the past by Presidents Democrat, Republican, and hell, even Federalist?! (Adams joke here). Shocked, pah. You're not shocked. You are just a sore loser, and you're trying to rub in any point you can. </p>
<p>Free speech also has a point where it becomes downright incendiary and harassing. When one's free speech interferes with the rights of another (the rights of someone to be not excessively bothered, for instance, and believe me, I've had my share of liberals rubbing their face of Kerry in front of me..) and when it comes down to violence, when it comes to a point where free speech "activists" are looking for a fight and get a losing one -- it is not arresting for the belief, but rather, arresting for the fact that a disturbance of the peace was caused. </p>
<p>It's you guys that pick the fights, not me, and not us.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Didn't we learn anything from Hoover? Now Ike. He was a good Republican (I know, oxymoron, much like compassionate conservative). What happened? Reagan and then Bush and then a brief saunter into sanity in the form of Clinton (my darling, my love) and now, a frat boy with a DWI record? Embarassing.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Are you Christian? Even if you're not, let me hrmm.. "school" you on Christian doctrine -- "Forgive and forget" or "turn the other cheek." You see, America is a land of second chances, too. We know of the President's prior record, and yet, we elected the President TWICE, fully aware of this.</p>
<p>And I will admit, we are horrible for doing the same as the others -- the Democrats, by launching mud in a personality war. We engage in ad hominem assaults during the course of both campaigns, and never -- almost never, rather, do we actually engage in the issues. But that's not solely a Bush/Kerry thing. It is the fault of the American people.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I am not one of those people who say that I'm now ashamed to be an American because I'm not. I know that America=free speech, the country where dreams can come true, where people's rights are protected. I know this, even if our president and all of your repulicans have forgotten it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>First off, it's Republicans. I know there's a B in there somewhere.</p>
<p>Tell me, Michael Moore's a horrid critic of the President. Is he being silenced? Nope. How about the President's other critics? Nope. I don't see anyone getting arrested, do you? These must be some phantom arrests, and they seem not to be working, because the liberal voice isn't silenced.</p>
<p>It's because the President respects these values of free speech -- he is not the ruthless dictator you portray him to be.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My one last question: How do you live with yourselves knowing that you support such an awful administration? Dubya will go down in history as a cheater, a liar, a warmonger, a murderer.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>As has any other President who's been involved in any wartime conflict, or any conflict period. Hell, Clinton qualified as all four too! (Bosnia) to some..</p>
<p>
[quote]
I want to be president too someday. I will cheat my way to the top, I will lie to the American people, I will get Cs in college, I will ride on my parents fame. I will murderer thousands of soldiers and foreigners. I will destroy what America stands for, and my adminstration will blatantly ***t on the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, we wouldn't put you in the Presidency if you paid all of America $32,000. You know why? Well, I'll keep my opinions to myself.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Hey. I should get elected. I'll even get a second term.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Who said we'll elect you? We're not that stupid, you know.</p>
<p>flipchick, you're totally right! but u know what...clinton's affair isn't what is the embarassment...in fact i coudl care less</p>
<p>what do ic are about? He represents America's vacation from history.... terrorist threats were growing all over the world. (Americans were being killed in Saudi Arabia, Tanzania, Kenya, Lebanon etc...) he had 8 years to do something, and he did zip. </p>
<p>He was willing too put up with too much cr*p...like with north korea and his whole "we'll keep giving you food and oil as long as you don't make your big bad weapons" ---Bush is not willing to trust a stupid dictator and pretending to make the problem go away. </p>
<p>and the whole middle east crisis? All he ever did was shake hands with leaders in front of cameras.</p>
<p>at least the Bush Administration is realistic about the fact taht there will never be stability or peace ANYWHERE in that region unless the leaders don't support terrorism. </p>
<p>and Bush is also realistic about the fact that we won't win the War on Terror unless placesl ike Afghanistan and Iraq become democratic.</p>
<p>The margin of victory is quite large if you compare it to those of the last few elections. If the last two decades or so, no president has managed to get over 50% of the vote. Bush has. That just shows how strong his support is.</p>
<p>Be naive and think that the war in Iraq was about oil like all the other naive people out there. Looks like Michael Moore has done his job well. The fact is, is Bush didn't go to Iraq, there'd be more terrorists around funded or aided by Hussein. </p>
<p>Same sex marriage is not something any society should have. ITs not discriminatory, because marriage isn't something that same sex couples are entitled too. Its not like they had it and we took it away. Most religions disapprove of it. In fact its sad even calling it a marriage because it simply isn't. </p>
<p>Faith is good. It makes a person a better individual. Bush's faith doesn't intrude on his job as president. Its not as if he's passing laws forcing Chrisitianity on people. And he does respect all religions, even Muslims. Remember after 911, when he said that no one should discriminate against them?</p>
<p>Again, I'm proud to be a Republican. Its liberals that should be ashamed. Do you prefer to have the gov't knowing what you read, or having some terrorists detonate a bomb in a major city?</p>
<p>pixedaner: no i get that. i don't think i was clear. totay the us is a theocracy led by an insane born again christan. it's fine to have religious beliefs if that sort of thing floats your boat, but frankly, i'm tired of conservatives hiding behind religion and spouting out religious crap to me instead of truth. i don't actually care about the bible so stop shoving it in my face. </p>
<p>flipchik: all i can say to you is that i hope that you one day leave indiana and realize that there is a big wide world out there. take advantage of being exposed to truth. and (to all of you indiana people who are ****ed at me right now) both my parents are from the midwest and all i can say is thank god they had enough sense to flee to NYC...otherwise i'd probably be spouting off ridiclousness right now too. don't worry, it's not your fault. enviroment has a lot to do with it. are you looking at columbia? i think it would do you good.</p>
<p>tlaktan: thanks for the laugh...i just saw your post. no, i am not christian. i believe in forming my own set of ethics, not blindly believing in what people tell me (or basising my ideals on a novel written by some white men). not that stupid? we shall see. </p>
<p>thank you i know about the 3.5 million votes? now how many people voted twice again? any republican from ohio want to comment? how many democrats were stopped from voting? floridians? yeah.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My right to even look up what I want in the library without it being reported to the government is trampled, nevermind my constitutional right to free speech. And, his "huge margin of victory"...51%? Ummm no. Check your stats. Republicans tend to fudge those a little bit.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>SkepticalSeniorNY, YOU are the one who tends to exaggerate things a bit. Now, if you happened to go to a public library and spend almost all of your online time browsing radical websites advocating violence against Americans and teaching people how to make bombs, the government absolutely has the right to question you about your motives. it does not, however, mean that the government actually checks up on every single thing you see or read in a true Big Brother sense.</p>
<p>Also, you need to be informed about the 2004 elections a bit more. President Bush won by 3.5+ million votes, in absolute terms the largest number of votes any presidential candidate has won.</p>
<p>"His "firm stance on same sex marriage" is a joke. And it's ridiculous and discrimminatory. Being American, I don't support discrimmination, neither should he."</p>
<p>I hardly think this is discrimination. Just because homosexual people are whining doesn't mean that the vast majority of America must give up their definition of marriage. Truly, homosexuals would have far better success trying to push forth more rights in civil unions, because the problem isn't with people not wanting to give them rights, it's changing the definition of marriage that is the problem. </p>
<p>"No love, he's a war monger who's po'ed that his daddy didn't get Saddam Hussein...he just wanted to finnish the job."</p>
<p>Well, I'm sure glad he decided to finish the job (BTW, you spelled "finish" wrong). Do you seriously think it's a good idea to have an evil dictator in power? I sure don't think so. Not to mention the fact that that certain evil dictator was helping terrorists and completely ignored UN mandates...</p>
<p>"And he doesn't respect the beliefs of others, especially Muslims."</p>
<p>Hmmm.... has anyone else seen Bush persecuting Muslims, because I sure haven't. Just because several of the terrorists happen to be muslim doesn't mean that Bush was targeting Muslims. Oh, that's right, SkepticalSeniorNYC thinks we should be nice to the terrorists!</p>
<p>"His faith intrudes upon his presidency."</p>
<p>Nope. I haven't seen the "Christians are the Ultimate People and Should Receive More Rights than Others" act come out yet, so I really disagree with your statement. Tell me, is it wrong to base decisions on ethics. His decisions have been based on values, yes, but they are values not particular to just the Christian religion. Heck, the next thing I'm going to read from some liberal is that we shouldn't help the tsunami victims because doing so would be in accordance to Christian beliefs. Now, everyone knows that's not going to be said by anyone, because most would agree that helping them is the right thing to do. A President is going to make decisions based upon what he thinks is the right thing to do. The fact that he is a Christian has nothing to do with this.</p>
<p>The ignorance and bitterness of some people completely bewilders me. But, I feel sorry for you, because you are all victims of the brainwashing power of some fake, cheating, liberal politicians.</p>
<p>
[quote]
pixedaner: no i get that. i don't think i was clear. totay the us is a theocracy led by an insane born again christan. it's fine to have religious beliefs if that sort of thing floats your boat, but frankly, i'm tired of conservatives hiding behind religion and spouting out religious crap to me instead of truth. i don't actually care about the bible so stop shoving it in my face.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Here's an ugly truth for you. You can't be elected without the support of your constituency. And here's another ugly truth for you. Many constituents are very religious, with varying beliefs. Here's another ugly truth for you. Separation of church and state is impossible. </p>
<p>
[quote]
flipchik: all i can say to you is that i hope that you one day leave indiana and realize that there is a big wide world out there. take advantage of being exposed to truth. and (to all of you indiana people who are ****ed at me right now) both my parents are from the midwest and all i can say is thank god they had enough sense to flee to NYC...otherwise i'd probably be spouting off ridiclousness right now too. don't worry, it's not your fault. enviroment has a lot to do with it. are you looking at columbia? i think it would do you good.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Okay, then what do you have to say to me? I'm a Los Angeleno, born in the heart of the West Coast bastion of liberalism. Yet, I'm a conservative. I've paid the price for my conservatism, too. Pixiedanzer's a La-Canadan (can't make the enye, it's a suburb of Los Angeles). Do pray tell me, California is the bastion of liberalism, where the hell do we get our conservatism from, considering the profound concentration of liberalism in our environment?</p>
<p>
[quote]
tlaktan: thanks for the laugh...i just saw your post. no, i am not christian. i believe in forming my own set of ethics, not blindly believing in what people tell me (or basising my ideals on a novel written by some white men). not that stupid? we shall see.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You've yet to defuse any argument I've sent off to you. I wonder why? Oh wait, no, that's because there is no challenge.</p>
<p>bitter? not at all. because i believe the dems will rise again and america will prevail. seriously hun, get out of indiana. your ignorance and homophobia astounds me. </p>
<p>i think that even if it means keeping an evil dictator in power, WE CANNOT ATTACK NATIONS WHENEVER WE FEEL LIKE IT. that is not ok. that is wrong. we must realize that we aren't the only nation in the world and work with the world to achieve peace.</p>
<p>tlaktan: i'm brainwashed? please. read a book. think. realize that your country is in dire need of care. then let's talk. and please. you don't know me at all. don't presume upon my ethics.</p>