The counterintuitive side of engineering

College Majors Engineering Majors
1

<p>I was doing some research on job placement rates the other day, and I found some very surprising things.</p>

<p>First, I thought that UC Berkeley was better than Cal Poly SLO, so the job placement rates should be higher for UC Berkeley grads, right? Wrong. Here are the stats for 2009 civil engineering grads:</p>

<p>Berkeley grads: 19% found jobs, 48% were seeking employment
Cal Poly SLO grads: 63 students found jobs, only 9 were seeking employment</p>

<p>Now lets look at industrial engineering:
Berkeley grads: 40% found jobs, 38% seeking employment
Cal Poly SLO grads: 21 students found full time jobs, 1 student found a part time job, and nobody was still seeking employment</p>

<p>Here are the stats for mechanical engineering:
Berkeley grads: 27% found jobs, 37% seeking employment
Cal Poly SLO grads: 72 students found jobs, 7 students were seeking employment</p>

<p>Now let's compare engineering with business. Most people here would think that engineers would have an easier time finding jobs than business majors. After all, engineering is much harder than business and should pay off more, right? Nope.</p>

<p>During a recession:
2009 Berkeley business grads: 79% employed, 13% seeking employment
Average number of offers: 1.9
2009 Berkeley engineering grads: 34% employed, 32% seeking employment
Average number of offers: 1.8</p>

<p>Before the recession:
2007 Berkeley business grads: 84% employed, 5% seeking employment
Average number of offers: 2.4
2007 Berkeley engineering grads: 53% employed, 12% seeking employment
Average number of offers: 1.9</p>

<p>So, what can you learn from this? Go to easier colleges, and major in business instead of engineering!</p>

<p>Sources: <a href="http://www.careerservices.calpoly.edu/gsr/08-09/GSR_2008-2009.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.careerservices.calpoly.edu/gsr/08-09/GSR_2008-2009.pdf&lt;/a>
<a href="https://career.berkeley.edu/Major/Major.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;https://career.berkeley.edu/Major/Major.stm&lt;/a>
<a href="https://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2009Emp.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;https://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2009Emp.stm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>While this looks counterintuitive, pickiness might factor into this. Berkeley grads might spend longer finding a job because their expectations probably are way higher than Cal Poly grads’. Similarly, business grads get a job quickly but usually expect to start close to the bottom with “low” salaries and a long way to go to their “dream job”.</p>

<p>I think this makes a big difference, and that Berkeley grads probably just don’t feel like committing to a sub-par job, and want to see what’s out there before taking a job or choosing grad school…</p>

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<p>Cal Poly hooks you up with a job while at Berkeley you have to go digging a little bit.</p>

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<p>I don’t think that your particular data set supports your conclusion. SLO is a bad example to choose here, why? Because they’re a head above most state schools (and even some UC schools), especially in the areas of engineering and business (the two areas where you chose statistics). </p>

<p>In addition, Berkeley’s survey states that it surveys graduating seniors, whereas SLO’s doesn’t state the exact time period (this is important… give a class more time to find jobs, they’ll find more jobs).</p>

<p>Another point to add about the last bit, regarding pre/post recession #'s for employment is that you fail to include where the rest of those grads who aren’t employed are going… graduate school (an additional 26.5% in 2009 and an additional 29.7% in 2007). The numbers reflected if you include these are a whole lot less damning. </p>

<p>What conclusions could I comfortably draw from these numbers? That I wouldn’t have minded attending SLO as far as its ability to prepare me for careers in engineering or business. (I have a lot of respect for the school and have been lucky enough to work with a good # of folks from here throughout my summer internships.) But I’d be hard pressed to expand that to state schools in general and especially to say that business > engineering is the way to go. An engineer can learn how to tackle the business aspects, but it doesn’t necessarily work the other way around.</p>

5

<p>

Most of them are choosing grad school because they can’t find a job now.</p>

<p>

This may be dragging the thread off topic, but would it be a good idea for engineers to take a business minor, or is it just a waste of money and time?</p>

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</p>

<p>Is that why a smaller percentage went to grad school in 2009 than 2007?</p>

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<p>Seems to me there is some truth as what johannes1430 stated. Skimmed through many of the companies that hired for UCB and SLO. It seemed many of the UCB grads got positions at big companies, while SLO seemed scattered from small to big. Also, geographical location plays a role as well. I noticed many of the SLO grads got hired in and around socal.</p>

<p>Wish UCLA posted some statistics as well. If they have it, well I can’t find it. These statistics are pretty uselful, because they post which companies hired. When I graduated, I really had no idea what was out there, other than the companies that attended the career fairs or had info sessions.</p>

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<p>@johannes1430</p>

<p>I find your previous comments puzzling:</p>

<p>“While this looks counterintuitive, pickiness might factor into this. Berkeley grads might spend longer finding a job because their expectations probably are way higher than Cal Poly grads’. Similarly, business grads get a job quickly but usually expect to start close to the bottom with “low” salaries and a long way to go to their “dream job”.</p>

<p>I think this makes a big difference, and that Berkeley grads probably just don’t feel like committing to a sub-par job, and want to see what’s out there before taking a job or choosing grad school.”</p>

<p>If Cal’s graduates are more picky and unwilling to settle for sub-par jobs, then how do you explain the following starting salary data: </p>

<p>Starting Salary by CA Public University Graduates (2010-2011)</p>

<p>1) Cal Poly $55,000
2) UCB $53,100
3) UCSD $48,700
4) UCSB $47,600</p>

<p>I think if being picky means holding out and searching high and low to find jobs that pay less than Cal Poly graduates (bunch of CSU graduates that have to settle for sub-par jobs) , then I think Cal’s and the other UCs SERIOUSLY need to revisit their job search method or the market valuation of their degrees. Perhaps, they need reminding that it is a race to the TOP, not the bottom.</p>

<p>@ODDball</p>

<p>I think I will have to disagree with your conclusion. If I were to follow your logic to its conclusion, then I should pass up Cal engineering, and enroll at DeVry college of business and come out a winner, both financially and educationally. Yes?</p>

9

<p>@NegativeSlope

</p>

<p>I think it’s a great idea to do this and gain understanding of not just the tech, but the argument for why the tech should exist. At UCLA, the “Technology Management” technical breadth (all engineers take 3 courses from outside their major, choose from chemE, EE, CS, etc. + nanotech and tech mgmt) is the most popular choice and it teaches economic & finance concepts in addition to more engineering related topics (but still business critical) like product strategy and systems engineering.</p>

<p>Although I didn’t take the tech mgmt breadth, I was able to enroll in product strategy, systems engineering, frontiers of biotech (taught to mixed class of grad students, MBAs, and undergrads) and an MBA level seminar class about future tech that helped provide the foundation for me to leap out of bioengineering into technology consulting (for a summer) and then into product management (soon-to-be PM at Microsoft).</p>

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<p>But do these numbers take into account the majors of the students? If, for example, UCSB students were predominantly in humanities, social studies other than economics and business, and biology, while the schools with higher averages were predominantly populated with engineering students, not accounting for that may give an inaccurate impression.</p>

<p>Regarding engineering versus business at Berkeley, note that while business majors have a better job placement rate, their pay rates are not particularly high, especially compared to EECS and L&S CS (EECS is by far the largest engineering major at Berkeley, though most of those going to employment get CS type of jobs). Of course, civil engineering a different story given the real estate / construction crash.</p>

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<p>Regarding average pay after graduation…</p>

<p>Looking at the links in the first post, the majors represented are different for those who responded to the survey with employment information:</p>

<p>Cal Poly SLO: 27% Liberal Arts (19%) + Science and Math (8%), 23% Engineering, 20% Business
UC Berkeley: 66% Letters and Science, 12% Engineering, 13% Business</p>

<p>Based on that, the Cal Poly SLO median and mean pay should be higher.</p>

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<p>Take geography into account as well. Berkeley has a much larger national footprint, while SLO does not. SLO has most people staying nearby in California where salaries are much higher. Berkeley has a lot stay in California, but there is a larger percentage going to other regions than SLO, which would derail attempts at direct salary comparison between the two.</p>

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<p>@ucbalumnus</p>

<p>I think the majors here are not the core issue. Reason being that the main comparison here made by the OP and Johanne1430 is really between UCB and Cal Poly. Both university have sizable engineering schools, hence salary skewing by engineering majors should be comparable. Moreover, the assertion that UCB engineering is far superior to Cal Poly (which I actually agree completely) should favor UCB’s starting salary HEAVILY. Then again, why Cal Poly’s lead over Cal?</p>

<p>Also, there are ample number of LACs (some public and lots of private) that have all around superior salaries than all of UCs and CSUs (including those with huge engineering programs). Therefore, humanities majors can’t be a massive adverse influence on starting salaries.</p>

<p>As for your % of engineering school student population:</p>

<p>Cal:
For 2010 engineering undergraduate: 4,345 students
Total UCB 2010 undergrad: 25,540 undergraduates </p>

<p>% engineering: 17%</p>

<p>Cal Poly:
For 2010 engineering undergraduate: ~5000 students
Total student population:~20000</p>

<p>% engineering: 25%</p>

<p>Another counterpoint for you:</p>

<p>Harvard grad’s earning power is higher than both MIT and Caltech. Harvard is view much more as a LAC than a tech school. So why the salary difference?</p>

<p>As for Geography, Cal’s student population is larger than CP’s, also since Cal is nationally known, and CP is not, Cal’s grads go to places like NYC, Boston, Chicago (all high salaries cities). CP’s grads don’t typically venture that far. Hence, those additional cities actually have industries that pay even higher salaries than engineering in CA, industries such as i-banking, management consulting, and private equity.</p>

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<p>I like how you just forgot to mention EECS, because Berkeley rapes cal poly in that.</p>

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<p>“Harvard grad’s earning power is higher than both MIT and Caltech. Harvard is view much more as a LAC than a tech school. So why the salary difference?” </p>

<p>Because generally speaking dont investment bankers, and whatever else harvard grads tend to do, make more money then engineers? Even engineering students from MIT (if they go into engineering) will make similar amounts to other engineers from lesser schools. I could be wrong but i think this is a point Sakky constantly makes.</p>

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<p>One more thing, it is generally asserted that UCB is a whole cut above Cal Poly, again I agree. </p>

<p>With that said, UCB grads are privy to career opportunities that are not available to Cal Poly’s grads. Opportunities such as i-banking, management consulting, private equity, investment management, and etc. Those jobs should blow the starting salary sky high for Cal.</p>

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</p>

<p>I used the percentages from the employment surveys at each school, which is presumably where average pay numbers come from.</p>

<p>Given that both schools give breakdowns by major, it may be more worth doing a major by major comparison rather than using the entire campus and having number of students in each major cause incorrect conclusions. (Note that I am not necessarily saying that one school will necessarily have same-major graduates with significantly higher pay, just that a more fine grained approach will give data that one is better able to draw conclusions from.)</p>

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<p>Here are some by major numbers. Unfortunately UCB reports what appears to be mean pay, while CPSLO reports median pay. In both cases, the 2009 reports were used.</p>

<p>But here are some numbers, with school/major/number-responded-to-survey/employed/seeking/mean-or-median-pay:</p>

<p>Engineering majors discussed here</p>

<p>CPSLO / Computer Engineering / 32 / 72% / 13% / $65,000
CPSLO / Computer Science / 27 / 96% / 4% / $69,000
CPSLO / Electrical Engineering / 51 / 73% / 12% / $65,000
CPSLO / Software Engineering / 6 / 100% / 0% / $83,000
UCB / Computer Science (L&S) / 35 / 55% / 32% / $75,487
UCB / Electrical Engineering and Computer Science / 111 / 52% / 20% / $75,833</p>

<p>CPSLO / Civil Engineering / 102 / 62% / 9% / $56,000
CPSLO / Environmental Engineering / 11 / 36% / 27% / NA
UCB / Civil and Environmental Engineering / 37 / 19% / 48% / $60,502</p>

<p>CPSLO / Industrial Engineering / 26 / 81% / 0% / $61,000
CPSLO / Manufacturing Engineering / 5 / 100% / 0% / $53,000
UCB / Industrial Engineering and Operations Research / 33 / 40% / 38% / $59,885</p>

<p>CPSLO Mechanical Engineering / 94 / 77% / 7% / $60,000
UCB Mechanical Engineering / 75 / 27% / 37% / $65,119</p>

<p>Business and Economics</p>

<p>CPSLO / Business (12 majors including Economics and 4 master’s degree majors) / 409 (22 master’s degrees) / 78% / 10% / $52,000
UCB / Business Administration / 148 / 82% / 13% / $57,519
UCB / Economics / 168 / 58% / 26% / $56,784</p>

<p>Biology is a popular major with pre-med students</p>

<p>CPSLO / Biochemistry / 14 / 71% / 0% / NA
CPSLO / Biological Sciences / 63 / 44% / 11% / $35,000
CPSLO / Ecology and Systematic Biology / 1 / 0% / 0% / NA
CPSLO / Kinesiology / 35 / 20% / 9% / NA
UCB / Integrative Biology / 88 / 26% / 32% / $53,500 (the average pay is probably in error, since other years are closer to $40,000 to $42,000 for this major)
UCB / Molecular and Cell Biology / 132 / 25% / 34% / $40,123</p>

<p>Political Science is a popular major with pre-law students</p>

<p>CPSLO / Political Science / 36 / 53% / 3% / $31,300
UCB / Political Science / 147 / 35% / 33% / $49,202</p>

<p>Psychology is a common social studies major</p>

<p>CPSLO / Psychology / 48 / 52% / 10% / $27,456
UCB / Psychology / 142 / 25% / 48% / $41,667</p>

<p>Mathematics is somewhat common</p>

<p>CPSLO / Mathematics / 29 / 41% / 7% / $43,000
UCB / Applied Mathematics / 26 / 46% / 21% / $53,925
UCB / Mathematics / 30 / 16% / 28% / NA</p>

<p>Interpret as you wish.</p>

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<p>nice work! thanks for the information. From the data, I can only see that Cal Poly rapes UCB in a lot of majors…
and btw, I have a friend, a Civil Engineering majored, who just graduated from UCB last summer, 2010. He still couldn’t find a job now, with a 3.7 GPA .</p>

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<p>Actually, the strongest pattern appears to be that CPSLO has better job placement rates, but lower pay for the jobs found. Which could align with the “UCB graduates are more picky” theory that another poster wrote, though that is not necessarily the reason, and there are other possible explanations. But the data, as useful as it is, may not give the answer as to why, although we can certainly speculate.</p>

<p>Still, both CPSLO and UCB are among the better schools at providing data like this (although it is limited by the response / non-response rates). Many other schools do not even have a survey, or at least not one whose results are where prospective students and parents can find and look at.</p>