The Death of Liberal Arts?

[mathboy98]

<p>

She is also worried about NOT being flexible enough of an employee. She worries about not having the writing skills or the humanities knowledge to get her through life. But, she also thinks the Engineering could open many doors for her.</p>

<p>See, each has it’s pros and cons and each has it’s place in society. We need both to make the world go round, so the loss of liberal arts is VERY troubling for someone like me. We need the thinkers and the problem solvers if we want to progress as a society.

</p>

<p>From someone who appreciates the liberal arts myself, there are plenty of flaws with this line of reasoning. </p>

<p>The issue is reading, writing, etc are <em>generic skills</em>. See Zapfino’s article, which states how people spend years listening to someone drone on about topics of his/her choice, completing obscure readings, all to “learn to read, write, think” - that should have been done in high school. </p>

<p>There’s a reason I fear just randomly jumping in and taking an upper level Bio-E course and don’t fear doing the same for a literature class. It’s because the prerequisite to learning the liberal arts is maturity in reading and writing, which can be acquired many ways - hell, posting here on CC is actually a decent bit of practice in communicating ideas to others effectively, and by the way, whenever I have taken literature classes, I’ve found it very easy to please the instructor. The brutal training you receive as an engineer is a much more directly acquired skill, which cannot be replicated close to as easily. BigEast is right about the learning curve being higher in technical subjects. </p>

<p>Look, people, it’s very easy to state that you can get a degree in history and then spout the same nonsense - </p>

<p>* You got a degree in X? Try for a career in Y because you’re smart, and who cares what you majored in - it’s all what you make of yourself, live your life in school with no regrets, do what you love! *</p>

<p>Who on earth really values your skills? Can your skills be replicated by someone very easily? Is more than a decent communication ability really needed for many of the good careers - no! Spending four years on developing certain skills like engineering is actually a fair bit of gain, in terms of how you train yourself to be confident doing certain things, and that’s why those people get the jobs. </p>

<p>The fact of the matter is that a lot more people are afraid of working with definite, quantitative things, and a lot of crucial stuff is actually built and produced using those skills. Reading and writing properly are becoming too basic. Worse yet, EVEN someone with good quantitative ability can have a hard time if not putting in lots of effort to become marketable - i.e. doing things the world actually is asking for right now.</p>

[rocket6louise]

<p>

You have a very incorrect assumption that “thinkers and problem solvers” are unique to the Liberal Arts - which is completely untrue.

</p>

<p>That’s not what I was saying at all. The “thinkers” are the kids in liberal arts. The “problem solvers” are the University-trained engineers and such. I was saying both were essential and work together</p>

[JanofLeiden]

<p>I don’t see why writing well is assumed to be an easily acquired skill. Most people write quite poorly. An elegant prose style is developed slowly, if at all, and even a modestly persuasive paper shines brightly compared to the dull dreck churned out by most students.</p>

<p>Anyway…</p>

<p>It’s correct that the minimum required of the engineer is substantially higher than that required of the liberal arts major. This leads engineers to conclude, erroneously, that the liberal arts are easy. In truth, learning to extract meaning from a literary text or to effectively stitch historical data into a compelling narrative is extremely challenging. The difference between an “A” paper and a paper actually worth reading is very wide indeed. If universities had standards most liberal arts students would receive deservedly abysmal marks. Do not, however, let the poor work of most students deceive you into thinking the liberal arts are meaningless. Society is built as much upon philosophy as it is upon mathematics, and there is no civilization where there is no art.</p>

[noimagination]

<p>

The Liberal Arts are the ONLY majors that make sense for ME. Sure, I’m worried about not having a career ready made, but I think the skills I’ll gain-like writing, analysis, and how to LEARN, will last me a lifetime and make me a very adaptable worker.</p>

<p>On the flip side, one of my very best friends is going to be majoring in Chemical Engineering. She wants job security and doesn’t want to have to carve out a career. Her skills will be useful for a number of things, as society basically always needs engineers. She is also worried about NOT being flexible enough of an employee. She worries about not having the writing skills or the humanities knowledge to get her through life. But, she also thinks the Engineering could open many doors for her.

Flexibility and marketable skills are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

That’s not what I was saying at all. The “thinkers” are the kids in liberal arts. The “problem solvers” are the University-trained engineers and such. I was saying both were essential and work together

What’s the difference?

I don’t see why writing well is assumed to be an easily acquired skill. Most people write quite poorly. An elegant prose style is developed slowly, if at all, and even a modestly persuasive paper shines brightly compared to the dull dreck churned out by most students.

“Writing well” also lacks a clear definition. Producing high-quality written work with literary merit is entirely different from effectively communicating information and ideas. The former, while certainly valuable is only really necessary or desirable in a small subset of the population (authors, English profs, etc). The latter is a necessary skill, but I do not see a firm logical link between its development and traditional humanities courses.</p>

[alchemist007]

<p>Technical writing is a skill that all engineers learn.</p>

[BIGeastBEAST]

<h2>I don’t see why writing well is assumed to be an easily acquired skill. Most people write quite poorly. An elegant prose style is developed slowly, if at all, and even a modestly persuasive paper shines brightly compared to the dull dreck churned out by most students. ~ Janeofleiden</h2>

<p>Well, in the real world you don’t need to write in an “elegant prose style” (snobby Harvard accent added for effect), lol.</p>

<p>My job, by most people’s standards is writing intensive, yet all my writing is mainly communicative, not narrative. It’s mostly short emails, memos and reports.</p>

<p>My reports are detailed, succinct and technical. The exact opposite of a narrative. In fact, in most working environments, if you write in a narrative form - you will be reprimanded. Supervisors, managers and clients don’t have time to read some drawn out, lengthy “prose style” narrative. They want direct, succinct reporting that provides them with the needed information.</p>

<p>The kind of writing you are suggesting simply isn’t needed in the business world, in fact - it would be considered a negative quality to have.</p>

[BIGeastBEAST]

<h2>That’s not what I was saying at all. The “thinkers” are the kids in liberal arts. The “problem solvers” are the University-trained engineers and such. I was saying both were essential and work together ~ Rocket6louise</h2>

<p>I’m not really sure what that means, I don’t think you really understand what you are saying either.</p>

<p>However, if we use your logic (flawed), then Liberal Arts “thinking” would be very useless compared to scientific “problem solving” in a working environment.</p>

<p>Boss: Did you fix that problem that came up yesterday?</p>

<p>Liberal Arts Major: I’m thinking about it.</p>

<p>Boss: I need it fixed</p>

<p>Liberal Arts Major: I know, I’m thinking about it!</p>

<p>Boss: Yill you just fix the damn thing so we can move on?</p>

<p>Liberal Arts Major: OK, OK - I will think HARDER ABOUT IT!</p>

<p>Boss: Did you fix that problem that came up yesterday?</p>

<p>Engineer: Yes, I solved the problem.</p>

<p>Boss: Good</p>

<p>Now, who would you rather have working for you?</p>

<p>Obviously, I don’t think it works like that. However, that’s the logic YOU are proposing.</p>

[BIGeastBEAST]

<p>LOL, and will you please tell me what “humanities knowledge needed to get through life” is?</p>

[JanofLeiden]

<p>I don’t understand why you would mistake “elegant prose style” for “narrative.” I’m not talking about writing a novel. You don’t even seem to know what the word “prose” means.</p>

[pandem]

<p>How </p>

<h1>writing about obscure topics in an essay format </h1>

<p>writing skills in the real world</p>

<p>is beyond me.</p>

[BIGeastBEAST]

<p>I don’t understand why you would mistake “elegant prose style” for “narrative.” I’m not talking about writing a novel. You don’t even seem to know what the word “prose” means. ~ JAnofleiden</p>

<hr>

<p>Because “elegant prose style” is typical put in a narrative or essay from in school, but that form of writing isn’t used in business.</p>

[mathboy98]

<p>The world isn’t divided into thinkers and problem solvers. One needs a combo of both in leaders and a lot of the latter for workers to actually make things run. Thinkers are the minority. Getting a liberal arts degree doesn’t make one a thinker either - only the topmost bracket of aware, very smart liberal arts people are thinkers.</p>

[alchemist007]

<p>Engineers are both problem solvers and thinkers!</p>

<ul>
<li>Petroleum Engineer Major</li>
</ul>

[thquart]

<p>I have had this struggle for a long time -choosing between liberal arts or a more technically oriented major. I am capable of doing both quite well, as I have learned over the past year.
Having come from a lower-middle class family, salary and monetary success is ALWAYS something that has plagued my decisions. As a result I had become disillusioned and, quite frankly, unhappy.</p>

<p>I had a bad high school record up until senior year and mediocre SAT scores, but I still managed to get into a fairly good state school. Once I started taking classes, I became more motivated to learn and pursue those academic subjects which I found interesting, both sciences and social sciences. I’ve been able to keep close to a 4.0 GPA because I am passionate about school and I love to learn.</p>

<p>I think the most important thing in college is doing something that you like to do - that makes you happy. What’s the point in pursuing an engineering degree for the financial stability if you are incredibly unhappy doing so? Surely unhappiness at the job will quell any sort of creativity or enthusiasm for advancement. Maybe a technical degree is more marketable for a job directly out of school, but what is the point if someone is incredibly unhappy during the path to graduation and in their job afterwards?</p>

<p>That being said, I do think that certain math and statistics skills should be learned by everyone. I’m going to be a junior now and I plan on majoring in economics (BA) and possibly political science, and plan to take many math and stat courses. I’ve changed my major so many times it’s not even funny - from biology to psychology to statistics. The most important thing in all this is finding what is right for me and going for it. I’m not so much worried about my finances anymore because I’m doing what I love to do - I am happy. I don’t see a point in training for something that you’ll be doing for the rest of your life that won’t make you happy.</p>

<p>It’s my belief that many college students go through school not caring about much, so they major in English or some humanity because they have no passion for learning about anything - they’re just along for the ride. These are the sorts of people who need to be worried about a job.</p>

<p>Most importantly, I think if it makes a person happy and fulfilled to study accounting or engineering, then they should go for it. A person should NOT study these things for the pursuit of financial stability, because they won’t be happy doing so. If it makes a person happier to study history, then they should go for it. A motivated and happy person will always find something they can do for a job. Just be happy in doing what you do.</p>

[BIGeastBEAST]

<p>If you can major in something that makes you happy (whatever that means), and then go on to do the same kind of work professionally, more power to ya.</p>

<p>However, that isn’t the norm. Most people go on to work in environments not related to their degree, and get stuck in jobs they don’t “love” anyways - so what’s the point?</p>

<p>I mean, are you just going to avoid doing things that don’t make you happy your whole life? Good luck.</p>

<p>I mean, if it came down to being happy - I’d be a professional fisherman, but in the real world you gotta do what your job requires, regardless if it makes you happy at that moment.</p>

<p>^^^^ History is a prime example. Other than teaching, there isn’t much you can do with a history degree that will actually use history everyday.</p>

[thquart]

<p>Bigeast, I definitely see your point and am aware that most people don’t end up in the field that they study in college.</p>

<p>My main point was that I don’t think anyone should study something PURELY for financial stability and be unhappy doing so, and consequently in their careers, because it probably won’t work out. I don’t see the point in that when there are other, non-technical opportunities. I think that most college students are aware that they won’t end up in their major field, and most that I know are okay with this. Obviously there will be classes or other things that one may be unhappy with but need to get done - it’s a fact of life that I’m not ignorant of.</p>

<p>Obviously there may be jobs one takes that they are unhappy with. Of course there will be some people who get stuck with these for the rest of their lives. It just seems better to me, that if one is passionate about a certain academic area that they follow it. I know that in doing this I’ve learned a lot about myself and have become a happier, and thus a more successful person. </p>

<p>Will I have a good job and financial stability when I graduate? I have no clue, but I’m also not too worried about it. I’m a very motivated person and will do what I need to do. If nothing else, at least I’ll feel I’ve gotten as much out of my college experience as I possibly could.</p>

[BIGeastBEAST]

<p>^^^^^ I guess for some that might be ok, but for students who don’t come from well-off backgrounds or have taken out large amounts of student loans (or their parents did), financial potential should be a major factor when pursuing majors.</p>

<p>I know it’s hard to look into the future, but as an adult your priorities really change. Once you become independent and have a family, financial well-being is at the very top of a persons checklist. </p>

<p>On a different thread I mentioned how happiness in ajob really doesn’t come from a particular field or subject, rather who you work for and the quality of life it provides. You could LOVE a certain subject, but end up hating the quality of life it provides, or hate the employer you work for. You could also work in a field you have little interest in, but be a very happy person because that job provides you with a good income, good quality of life and allows you to be happier in your personal life with lower stress or hassle.</p>

[thquart]

<p>You have an interesting point about being happy in the workplace. </p>

<p>Don’t get me wrong, I’ve given extreme thought to all this, as I am paying my own way and have minimal help from my family. It’s not like I’m majoring in women’s studies. I have finally (hopefully) decided on doing econ with a strong emphasis in math with the political science second major. If I can be happy in this and also have a decent chance at financial stability, great. I expect I’ll be financially stable in my life, but I also don’t believe money is the only thing to get out of a career and life in general.</p>

<p>Thanks for the insight. We’ll see how it works out soon enough.</p>

[mathboy98]

<p>If you know that there are some viable avenues to tread with your major, you will be fine.</p>

[coastin]

<p>Some of the things people think really baffle me…</p>

<p>Someone mentioned getting rid of LA degrees in general (as they exist now)… I can’t imagine that. I agree there should be less probably, because in general there are less practical jobs that directly stem from a LA degree, without a doubt. However, no matter how much more society may need bridges built and nuclear waste disposed, I would never sacrifice what I learned so far in school from my non-math/science classes. To be honest, it was my history and languages teachers (who got liberal arts degrees) that inspired me to love learning. Don’t tell me that is not useful in society: it changed my life completely, and I am certain others have had such an experience. I appreciate math and science more now (and all subjects really) because of it.</p>

<p>I am only 18 so I really shouldn’t be giving anyone advice on any matter, but really I think all majors have their place in the world, and most of this argument is truly pointless. Some of you may say a Spanish major is pointless from a non-ivy school. But I have told you a Spanish major from a non-ivy / tier 1 school helped me to really start love learning. I cannot put a dollar amount on that. It is easy to get caught up in money. A ChE major from a lesser school may make more than a liberal arts major from a more renowned one, but money is not always the most important thing. LA majors are evidence of this, because many go in knowing they might just make half of STEM majors, and do it anyway.</p>

<p>On the other hand, engineering is a very practical major. And what I have not really seen anyone comment on (which truly disappoints me) is that an engineering major can also enrich a learner like a LA degree, though in a different way. My Dad is an engineer, and he admits he hardly uses any of what he learned in college. Thermodynamics, he says, does not come up all that often. However, he attests to the fact that engineering taught him how to think logically and clearly. He is a problem solver, a very sequential thinker, in no small part due to his engineering education. This is really impressive to me. It is not the money that impresses me at all, and I implore engineering majors and the like to not emphasize this point as the reason that engineering is better, LA is worse, you should major in whatever etc. There are more important things to be had from such a degree than money. The hard work you put in in college can turn you into a reasonable person capable of working through any problem put in front of you. </p>

<p>Both liberal arts majors, using talents they learned in college, and engineering majors, using the talents they learned in college, have positively affected my life. I don’t respect a major; I respect a person. And their are people worthy of your respect who are English majors (not from Ivy league schools or the like) and also Accounting majors.</p>

<p>No whole hearted endeavor is strived for in vain. Take that one to the bank.</p>

<p>Peace</p>