"The Debski Dilemma" Read if you edit CC essays

College Essays
1

<p>Debski posted the following in a different thread, and I felt it worthy of its own thread:</p>

<p>Editor's Dilemma:
I am a journal editor and am accustomed to correcting grammar and usage while preserving content.</p>

<h2>I have faced the following dilemma several times over the past few months: I receive an essay from an international applicant to a US college, with appropriate answers to the prompt, interesting information and English skills that reflect a junior-high or, worse, an elementary-school level of proficiency. I feel it is dishonest and, in truth, a disservice to the applicant to correct his/her English to a level appropriate for a college application when the applicant obviously lacks mastery of the language. Although international students are valuable to US colleges in their capacity to provide the diversity of background that rounds out a college population and promotes the American value of equal opportunity, if these students cannot communicate, they will fail in our colleges and universities. The are hundreds of for-profit editors who will "buff" a deficient essay, but that is not the mission of CC. I tell applicants who are clearly unfamiliar with MLA English that the essay is like a driving test: if you fail, is is unfair to you and to everyone else to have you out there (or in the college). How have other essay readers responded when faced with this situation?</h2>

<p>I think this is a very valid question that should be discussed under the CC editing community. Whether or not I am "officially" an editor, I have sure corrected plenty of people's essays. Most if not all have said they were thankful for my suggestions. But, onto the point of this thread, what can the community come to a consensus on ?</p>

<p>My thoughts: I treat them like most any essay I edit/correct. If to me it seems to be in a really rough draft stage, I will mostly give advice on content matter and general direction of the essay. I may point out errors (like contractions in a formal essay...) but if I do it is only once or twice. I will not find every one of them. In my essay summary, I will tell them they have a problem with, for instance, contractions.
More final draft type essays will get commentary on tone, style, direction, etc. If I see a little grammar thing or a comma out of place, I point it out. Maybe that is the right way, or the wrong way. </p>

<p>Thoughts?</p>

2

<p>I think it raises questions if someone who seems generally to have a relatively weak command of English submits a highly polished essay courtesy of help from outside editors.</p>

3

<p>My level of involvement in editing someone’s essay depends largely on how much I like the person. </p>

<p>Also, positive feedback loops. I’d rather spend more time making a good essay better than making a bad essay less… bad.</p>

4

<p>**That’s completely self-defeating. If someone has
a good essay than there’s a greater chance that
your advice will hurt the applicant more than help
the applicant. What a stupid way to justify time
spent on an essay.</p>

<p>And the person who has a sucky essay needs help
MORE than the person who has a good essay. </p>

<p>As for the topic, I point out the grammatical fallacy
but I don’t pinpoint exact things over and over. I
only do it once per error type, which in itself can
fill up a page worth of critiques if the person is that
bad.</p>

<p>Just my .02**</p>

5

<p>If your comments are directed to me, all I have to say is that someone with a good essay would hopefully know a stupid suggestion when they saw one.
If their essay is THAT good they probably didn’t post it. Or, they just posted it so others would read and tell them how good it was.</p>

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<p>^ I like your method of not totally editing for grammar if you suspect rough copy stages.</p>

<p>When I edit for friends, the ones with questionable command of the language generally write less sophisticatedly. I wouldn’t mind pointing out all the existing grammatical issues, but would not go further than comment on what they don’t have: syntax, diction etc.</p>

<p>I do have an urge to change things though, but I resist it, for app essays anyway.</p>

7

<p>**Hahahah, the urge to change things. I may make 2-3
direct edits to show how to do something just to show
HOW it’s supposed to look.</p>

<p>Although, maybe 1 out of every 3 essays I get, while
I’m critiquing I get a strike of inspiration and type out
a few ideas that the writer can integrate into the speech.
Hahahha, it’s like a semi-lottery if someone’s essay gives
me inspiration. :)</p>

<p>Just my .02**</p>

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<p>I don’t offer to read essays (except one that sounded intriguing, and was), but I’ve received a handful unsolicited and tried to help each writer. Looking over my pm’s to the kids who’ve sent me essays, I think my approach is closest to what radronOmega describes (although I do think I tend to be a bit kinder ;)).</p>

<p>I often suggest a few changes in wording, but if I see the same grammatical error over and over, I’ll correct it once and then make a note of it (e.g., watch for mismatches in verb tense and subject/verb number – here’s an example in your essay).</p>

<p>Most of my feedback is in the form of questions (e.g., what life lessons did you learn from that experience?) and “packaging” advice (e.g., cut the whining here and find a positive note to end on). I sometimes ask leading questions that I hope will evoke more vivid descriptions (e.g., when you entered the room, did you amble in, shuffle in, or burst in?). And if I find a topic especially interesting or inspiring, I may get carried away and offer ideas on the content.</p>

<p>For the most part, I think my purpose is to give an idea of how an uninvolved third party will react to the essay and to get the writer thinking about what he wants to say and how. Anyone who comes to me expecting a copy editor will be disappointed.</p>

<p>I haven’t received essays from international students here, but have dealt with term papers from my college students who seemed barely literate in English writing. In grading the first assignment of the semester, I mark the hell out of each paper. After that, I adapt my reading to the student’s writing style; I make comments and offer resources to help improve their grammar, but focus mostly on the content when determining their grades. Given a badly written CC essay, I wouldn’t mark up the whole thing; I’d give some pointers on the grammatical rules, an example of correct and incorrect for each, and that would be the end of it.</p>

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<p>I am an international student, so naturally i’ve received plenty requests to critique and/or edit essays from my countrymen and fellow non-native speakers. Trust me, I know what the OP meant by “junior-high, or elementary school level English proficiency”. Many essays i’ve read are just downright horrendous and ridden with the most basic grammatical mistakes like “he do”, or “I were” and the like. </p>

<p>Initially, when i first started out helping people proofread their essays, out of the desire to see my compatriots succeed and the sheer fact that I got quite a bit of free time on my hand, I edited out all gross expressional and grammatical errors and sometimes even added a sentence or two of my own. Sure, everyone was happy with the final results and I was showered with heartfelt gratitude from the writers. After a short while, though, I realized that it’s most unfair to other applicants who don’t receive this kind of assistance and, indeed, a disservice to the writer himself because with this kind of English proficiency, he’s going to DIE in college. My own command of English didn’t just happen overnight. I put in tremendous efforts and I think they should do the same thing, too.</p>

<p>Nowadays, I still read and critique whichever essays people send to me (as long as they ask nicely, of course). For international applicants, most of who have a serious problem with grammar, I’ll just edit their first paragraph and leave a note saying that they should seriously revise their essay because grammatical mistakes are a definite turn-off. I’ll point out to them which expressions I think are awkward, but I won’t do the editing for them. They’re never gonna learn like that. I’m more brutal now after having read stacks of essays so sometimes I’ll just write, honestly, that “I stopped reading after the first paragraph.” For native speakers who mostly know their language (although most essays I read are from applicants to the Ivies and top schools, so that’s expected from them), I’ll do what geek_mom does, which is to leave my comments in the question form. I’ll also give suggestions on how they can improve their essays (i.e. delve into one particular aspects of their life instead of making a laundry list, or expand certain sections).</p>

<p>I definitely do more than just give my impression, unless of course the essay is really outstanding. I haven’t come across too many essays like that this season tbh. I give suggestions and specific comments, but I stop short of altering the gist of the original essay. Ultimately, it’s supposed to reflect who the writer is and his true writing ability. Even if a complete overhaul of the essay is needed, i’ll voice my opinion as such but it still needs to be done by the author himself.</p>

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<p>In my humble opinion, the main purpose of the essay is for the adcoms to know who the applicant truly is. A non-native speaker sent me his essay recently, and although there were many grammatical errors, it really touched my heart, as it was sincere and it really told who the applicant was. As far as I am concerned, he deserves a chance, and it will be a shame if he is denied admissions simply because of the grammatical errors, syntax….In these cases, I would definitely help them out with their grammar. I would though, state things like they need to work hard on grammar to prepare lives in college. For me, it is the gist that matters when I am editing an essay. If the essay is outstanding, then it has achieved the objective. Good essays, even with full grammatical errors, will always impress you and touch your heart. And, our mission is to make it perfect by brushing up the grammar.</p>

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<p>^ I think you should let the adcom be the judge of that. You can point out to the writer that his essay needs serious revision with regard to grammar, but you shouldn’t just do it yourself. It’s both unfair to those who don’t get your assistance and those whose essays are perfect grammatically thanks to their own efforts. I’m sorry but I don’t think grammatical mistakes (esp those like “i were”) are that hard to spot and edited! If an essay is horrendously ridden with those it just shows poor preparation on the writer’s part. </p>

<p>In letting the writer edit his own grammar (it’s seriously not that hard), he actually gets to learn English, and let’s be honest, it’s important to write a decent piece of mistake-free prose. Is he going to go through college relying on “content” only? In my English class, we dedicate 20 out of 50 marks for Language (taken to mean grammar, vocab and expressions) and the rest for Content. Sure, content is important but it’s not the be all and end all of an English essay. Suppose “Twilight” has one grammatical errors per two lines will it still become a #1 best-seller? You shouldn’t for the sake of college admission forgo the “Language” deficiency of the writer. Imho it’s lying to the schools he’s applying to, which I reckon all require a good command of English from its students. Surely, we have a tendency to help out the ones with a heart-wrenching, but far from perfect, essay. What i’m saying is that we should refrain from playing the editing God and let the applicant learn. It’s only going to benefit him.</p>

<p>About whether good essays, even with full (sometimes painfully basic) grammatical errors, can touch your heart, let the admission officers be the judge of that, shall we? That’s what they’re there for. I have assisted my English teachers in marking essays before, and tbh essays with the best content but show a lack of English proficiency will PASS, but will not do well. I’ll never give above 30/50. (30/50 is a B in my system, fyi)</p>

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<p>
[QUOTE=confused_vnese]
I’m sorry but I don’t think grammatical mistakes (esp those like “i were”) are that hard to spot and edited! If an essay is horrendously ridden with those it just shows poor preparation on the writer’s part.

[/quote]

vnese, I guess I’ll defer to you here as to how difficult it is for an ESL student to edit his own English writing. From what I’ve observed over time, certain English concepts such as articles and verb tense or number simply do not exist in some other languages. With some of my students, I could demonstrate time and again with an edit here, an example there… but they didn’t understand the rules behind the edits. It was a Vietnamese student in my first class who opened my eyes to the obstacles some international students have to overcome. He was very intelligent and somehow had gained a working grasp of my class material, but his papers were a train wreck. I don’t know how he managed to read the material I required. But if we spoke in person and I listened very carefully, it was obvious that he did know the material – he just had trouble communicating it in writing.</p>

<p>I haven’t figured out how to work with students like these yet; I get at least a few in every class. It’s almost like they need to start from square one with an elementary school English primer.</p>

<p>I agree wholeheartedly that rewriting these students’ essays does them a disservice. I’m just not sure how best to help them if they’re completely missing some elementary concepts of English grammar.</p>

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<p>geek_mom, incidentally, I’m a Vietnamese myself. While I recognize that being able to write well and fluently has more to do with inherent ability, a strong grasp of English grammar doesn’t require much more than serious practice. The English syllabus in my country takes grammar very seriously (to the extent that we don’t study anything else but), and the fact that they can’t get verb tenses and simple things like that right probably signal a lack of focus in English class. Most Vietnamese students tend to not take English very seriously because it’s all about maths and the sciences here. Cheating in exams is rampant here btw. It seems to me that some just wake up one day and decide that they’re too good for “boring” local universities and head overseas, while clearly lacking necessary English knowledge. They write their essay in a few hours, and ask for help from all possible sources to “edit” it, hoping that somehow the final product will be good enough to get them a ticket to the States, and that somehow after a few months in this country their English will magically become adequate. In my humble opinion, they need to at least spend a few months getting their basic grammatical rules right before enrolling in a foreign uni, unless of course the uni decides that their subpar command of English is enough.</p>

<p>The essays I’ve seen also tend to be divided into groups. Better and more hardworking students tend to edit their essays more and make conscious efforts to vary their expressions, etc. And then there are those whose essays are just so sloppily written it angers me a little that they even thought about going abroad and asking for financial aid from a foreign institution in the first place. Microsoft word has a “check spelling and grammar” function and apparently, they don’t even bother to use it! The latter group, I feel, doesn’t deserve to be spoon-fed and have their essays perfected for them by zealous CC helpers. The first group obviously deserves constructive criticism and perhaps some suggestions to make their essays flow better. But i’m still absolutely against “helping” the original writer so much that the final product distorts their writing ability. Colleges deserve to know what kind of students they’re getting, especially if they’re having to fork out tens of thousands of dollars a year to put these students in their classes. Most, if not all, of applicants from the third world (Vietnam included) ask for significant amount of finaid from US colleges.</p>

<p>Just my two cents. Do keep in mind that my comments might be biased, seeing that i’m one of those people who have put in a tremendous amount of effort to improve my English and would like to see it evaluated and rewarded appropriately.</p>

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<p>vnese, I figured you were Vietnamese based on your screen name and location (although you don’t make the mistakes typical of an Asian ESL student – kudos to you on your efforts in English).</p>

<p>Thank you for your response; it’s most enlightening. If you don’t mind my asking – Are elementary/secondary schools in Vietnam pretty uniform in quality, or does the quality of education depend on the wealth of a particular region? I’m curious as to whether every student coming from Vietnam has had the same opportunity to learn English so well. For the student I mentioned before, I tried to find some resources specific to a Vietnamese student learning English – but I didn’t have much luck. But if he had access to such resources at home, then he should be able to pick it up on his own.</p>

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<p>Thanks to everyone who has voiced an opinion on this thread. There are obviously at least a few different philosophies on how far an editor is willing to go in commenting on an essay, and I think it is good to have a discussion on it. </p>

<p>I agree it is fundamentally unfair to go so far as to point out and correct every single grammatical error in an essay written by someone with little to no mastery of the English language. I am comfortable in pointing out mistakes that occur repeatedly (contractions seem to be a favorite of the ones I’ve read), but will not search through every sentence looking for them. That laborious work is the job of the writer, and will hopefully cause a greater end product.</p>

<p>In an ideal world, the essays editors here on CC read would be grammatically flawless, and we could just comment on content, ideas, structure, and the like. But, even the best editor cannot guarantee that the end product will be exactly what the college is looking for. Advice can only go so far.</p>

<p>Again thanks for responding to this thread.</p>

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<p>geek_mom, I was schooled in Singapore which speaks English so i’m not exactly the prototypical vietnamese student. </p>

<p>Most of the students who actually go overseas come from major cities in Vietnam (Hanoi, Saigon /HCM City, Danang etc.), where the educational quality is decent and the resources to study English aplenty. The textbooks are the same, and we have many tuition classes for English. Everybody goes for tuition here. The state does place an emphasis on English, since at the end of secondary school and high school, all students are required to take exams in a small number of subjects (~6), including English. Books (general English grammar, test preps etc.) are available everywhere at low prices (people don’t give a crap about copy right, the explanation being that we can’t afford books at their real prices, so why bother? Just spread the knowledge.), so they’re not like scarce resources or anything. Of course, there are always online websites which teach English at low prices to go to. They do have to cram for the SAT and TOEFL tests which require some level of English proficiency so if their essays are sloppily written, imho it just shows poor preparation on their part. </p>

<p>I remember as I finished secondary school four years ago, I have already known by heart all the basic E grammatical rules. My essays then might read awkwardly, naturally coming from someone who doesn’t use E as a first language, but they are relative mistakes-free. </p>

<p>Of course there are those who come from obscure rural parts of Vietnam who may not have access to those kinds of resources, but if they have prepared for SAT and TOEFL (and gone through school, for that matter, because text books are uniform nationwide), I see very little reason why they can’t remember basic grammar. People do cheat on those exams here (by bribing the proctors, i’ve heard) so their results might not be a true reflection of their ability, in which case i don’t think CC editors should be participating in this lie. But that’s another story. If they can’t even pass TOEFL (say, get above 90 because that’s the threshold used by most mid to top colleges), then i can’t understand why they even contemplate going overseas for undergrad. Local unis are dreadful, but they aren’t that bad. Many successful Vietnamese graduated from those places. Oh just another side info, there’re all kinds of “help” available here for students wanting to go overseas: fake diplomas, distorted transcripts (most teachers will even participate), essay services (those seeking help online are probably just hoping to save some bucks. We’re a thrifty nation.), resume-writing service cum inventing all ECAs and awards etc. are all available at not-so-high prices. Integrity means squad to a sizable portion of us. Don’t get me wrong, I love my country, but sometimes what people do here makes me sick.</p>

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<p>confused_vnese
In a communist country where nobody would get a monthly paycheck more than, let say, $10,000, how can students like you go to Singapore to study ? Does Singapore require a bank statement like schools in the USA ?</p>

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<p>^ I was on a full scholarship from the Singapore government. For college, I already have a full ride offer so i think i’m quite fortunate. </p>

<p>Some people who work for private and/or international companies do get monthly paychecks of more than 10 grands nowadays. The poverty gap is getting bigger.</p>

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<p>compaq10–Singapore offers quite a lot of full-ride scholarships for high school (9th to 12th grade) to students from the South-East Asian nations.</p>

<p>I guess after reading through the thread, I agree with vnese. I am lucky to have not encountered any essays which were littered with grammar mistakes, but I definitely wouldn’t correct the grammar errors–I think editors should raise awareness to help students help themselves, but certainly shouldn’t function as re-writers.</p>

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<p>fiona_ and confused_vnese,
Thanks for the information</p>