<p>I'm just curious as to how CC parents felt about this. I was just reading the thread on the NPR story about Amherst, and there seemed to be a lot of parents taking away from it that they should heavily check their "teenager's" essays to remove iffy phrases. I myself neither solicited nor received help from my parents (or my teachers, for that matter) because (in addition to the fact that my mother was wholly disinterested in my application process) I felt that the admissions essay was supposed to be a measure of your own talent in conveying your passion, as well as a demonstration of your basic grammar skills and logical capabilities in editing (ie: the presence of analytical forethought not to miss a phrase that is worded in a way that might make you seem lazy or otherwise undesirable). I felt it would be insincere to get anyone's help other than to ask whether they felt it was an accurate portrayal of me, or suitably compelling, not what they would change. I have friends who asked me to fully edit their essays, as in tell them how particular sentences should be reworded, and I have no doubt they asked the adults in their lives to do the same. I also read on here a while back about paid admissions consultants who, among other things, are tasked with giving editing feedback on essays. At what point does "helping" render the work less of that of an individual than that of an army of "editors"?</p>
<p>I’ve told this story before. I hated the first draft of my son’s essay. I asked for advice on CC. The best advice I received (for his situation) was to talk to him about the essay, take notes, then give him the notes. What started as trite became pretty darned deep (for a 17 year old boy) because my questions coaxed out his deeper thoughts.</p>
<p>I think NPR story mentioned an essay that had some line that doomed the kid…something about not being excited by anything but music. I think that if a parent reads the essay and finds an “iffy” sentence like that, it would be fine to discuss it with the student. “Are you really trying to say that music and only music excites you, or just that music is your passion?” And if the iffy sentence conveys exactly what the student wants to say, so be it; if the admissions officers don’t like it, it’s not a fit.</p>
<p>If you (the parent) heavily proofread your S/D’s essay, it is still their work. </p>
<p>If you (the parent) edit the essay then the line becomes far murkier. </p>
<p>If someone else (e.g. a consultant) changes the work, then my answer changes to no it isn’t still their work. </p>
<p>I think a parent should give guidance on everything in their kids lives from acne to sex to careers to majors to college apps to how they dress and talk. We can debate what the word guidance means and at what point guidance becomes influence or control. </p>
<p>It’s all just a bunch of idle chatter because what works for one family might not work for another. I have no clue where the line is between help and doing it for them but I won’t hesitate to help and neither should you. That is my $.02. </p>
<p>If you won’t advocate and help your own kid who will? By the way, my oldest son has played high school football for the past few years. His little brother plays youth football. Both of my kids want to play and in both cases there is intense competition to get on the field. Do you know how much politics I’ve played with coaches to try to get playing time? None. Not one word. Why? Because I want them to earn it. </p>
<p>Now, I could apply the exact same logic to writing an essay. But I don’t. I help them without editing it. I suggest which parts suck and need improvement and if they don’t think so I make them tell me why. I think that makes them better writers. So, it isn’t a clear cut absolute answer about getting involved or not, it depends on what the issue is, but in the case of an essay … I say read it and give input. Don’t rewrite it but if it sucks get them to change it or sections of it. You had a great example, you talked with the kid and got him to think deeper and rewrite it himself. Well done.</p>
<p>I proofread my Ds essays to catch spelling & grammar errors, & typos. Surprising how many of these there are, even with spellcheck & even after she had read them (do/so, etc). If I saw an awkward phrase or an unintended pun, or things like that music sentence, I said so – but I did not make suggestions what changes to make.</p>
<p>OT but related to how “helpful” we are as parents.</p>
<p>Our elem school had a literary magazine and the best story (per three third party judges) from each grade went to a state conference. The year our older D wrote a story, I read it and asked her questions like “how did she get from point A to point c? something is missing.” With that type of “help” she won her grade level. When younger D wrote a story, H was in charge of the publication, so neither of us even glanced at her story before it was submitted. And she won her grade level, too. (When our son was about to enter a story, my “help” was telling him it was way too dark and if he submitted it we’d have the police at our house.)</p>
<p>My son was pretty adamant that he was going to do it himself. He let us read the essays and we gave comments about the ‘flow’ of the essay and made a couple of minor suggestions, may of which he chose not to take. It was frustrating for me not to be more helpful, but in the end I realized that his essays truly allowed his voice to shine through. (Also, I realized that he is actually a far better writer than I am, although his style is pretty much the opposite of mine.) If he had needed help with grammar and punctuation, that would have been a different story.</p>
<p>Heavily? Not so much. It’s always good to get the opinions of others because something the writer says may not be clear or may be interpreted another way. Helping your child by correcting mechanical errors or giving general impressions is to be expected. But any actual writing by the parent (or anyone else) is going overboard, in my opinion.</p>
<p>I never even saw my son’s essay.</p>
<p>There is a place where proofreading becomes editing, and a place where editing becomes writing. Staying on the “good” side of that first line is the real challenge.</p>
<p>My D was more of a challenge. I’d say something like “That sentence really makes you sound spoiled” and she’d say “But what should I say?”</p>
<p>I am a professional editor and writer, so I did help edit not only both my Ds’ essays, but also (this year), essays for a few other kids. I respect you a lot for doing it on your own, but I see nothing wrong with having another pair of eyes (or two pairs) on ANY writing. All my writing work, for magazines, newspapers and books, has always been professionally edited and proofread-- no serious writer would want it any other way. </p>
<p>But with the college essays I did not do what I do with some of the writers who work for me-- i.e. edit/change words on my own without consulting them. For my D, I sat with her, reading it on my laptop while she had it on hers, and asked her questions and pointed out areas that didn’t seem quite clear to me. If she agreed (most of the time), she figured out on her own how to make it better, or we talked about possible words/constructions. If she didn’t (a few times), she kept it. </p>
<p>She had a very clear idea of what she wanted to say, as did the other kids whose essays I edited. I did nothing to influence that. The content and soul of the essay was 100% her. I helped her make it pop a little more, and read more smoothly, but in a teacher/student way-- she had to change the words, and understand why something wasn’t clear and how to improve it. So it was a learning experience for her.</p>
<p>I can understand why some people would find this unfair. But I don’t see it that way. I think everyone can always improve his or her writing (I still am!), and it’s always good to have someone you respect read over a piece before you submit it, whether it’s a short story or a resume or a research paper.</p>
<p>What researching4emb said. I did the same - “heavy proofreading” (I love that term!) and suggestions, but he had the final say even though I often disagreed. He got angry when I accidentally used a whole phrase because he wanted to make his own phrases. I am a far better writer than my son is (so is SiXELA295) and his final essay looked like it was written by a 16 year old. His English teacher who reviewed it (and made little or no suggestions) said the same thing, but that his “voice” totally shone through. </p>
<p>I think it’s fair in that the essay is not only an indicator of grammar and ideas, but also an indicator of your judgment. SiXELA295 is a good writer. But what about when he/she runs into something difficult? Will he know how to ask for help then? There are times in your life when you need help from more experienced people. Nobody expects you to be a fully capable person in all areas at all times.</p>
<p>Thanks for asking such a good question in such a thoughtful way! :)</p>
<p>I agree that there is a fine line between proofreading and editing, but I would maintain that it is perfectly OK to supply light editing to an application essay, ‘Light’ means suggesting different phrasing, as opposed to changing ideas or concepts. </p>
<p>For example, my daughter wrote an essay about having the courage to advocate for change in the face of entrenched tradition. It was pretty good, and I suggested just a few different word choices, but she ended the essay with, “Carpe Diem!”. I told her that the phrase was trite and indicated a naive attempt to sound deep or clever; it spoiled an otherwise good essay, and I thought it would be off-putting to an application reader. She was furious when I told her to lose the phrase, and insisted that it was a wonderful way to end the essay. I insisted that she show the essay to several other people to get their opinions. Fortunately, her brother told her that he physically rolled his eyes when he read her ending, and that was enough to get her to remove it.</p>
<p>Excessive editing? I don’t think so, and I think it was a small but important change that might have affected how she was viewed by admissions personnel.</p>
<p>I never read my son’s essay and just the other night he told me he wrote it in 15 minutes!
Thank god he waited until all his acceptances were in - otherwise I would have freaked!</p>
<p>I proofread my D’s final essay for grammar and spelling issues after it had been proofread by her English teacher (a requirement at her school). I suggested several changes of tense and that was pretty much it. I did see the first draft (which was only vaguely similar to the final) because my D wanted several people’s opinions as to whether the topic was ok. We all said yes and then through its multiple drafts, the essay turned into something else again. All of her schools said it was among the best essays of the year. It managed to be slightly humorous, very self-deprecating, a little heartwarming, and it contained a genuine mystery. My daughter’s writing is far beyond anything I could have come up with and the essay told exactly who whe was, where she was coming from and where she hoped to go. I have a very good friend whose S is a year ahead of my D (he is a college soph) and I remember his essay well because his mom asked me to proofread it. Since I would never change anything substantive, I came away feeling that it was a truly terrible essay that didn’t reflect its author at all. To this day, my D refers to the young man as “pretentious essay boy” and I believe that it had an impact on his less-than-favorable outcome in terms of admissions and scholarships. It was just that bad.</p>
<p>Like SiXELA295, I wrote all my college application essays with no assistance from parents or anyone else. In my book. editing for obvious grammatical and spelling errors and discussing suggested ideas and approaches to the essay is the most anyone should do. </p>
<p>This is not only for the purposes of ensuring it is their work, but also to avoid the risks of overediting the essay into blandness due to fears of taking some calculated creative risks. Knew of several HS classmates and younger acquaintances whose failure to gain admission to some schools despite tippy top records/SATs could easily be traced to essays overedited into blandness or worse. </p>
<p>Moreover, parents and anyone else giving assistance should carefully assess their abilities to not only provide good writing advice, but also assist in ways which preserves the applicant’s unique voice.</p>
<p>I proofread and circled sentences that I thought could be rewritten on the first draft but I didn’t see another draft. The kids both wrote there essays as the first assignment for AP English so I imagine they did some editing as part of that process. I did read both their essays months after submission.</p>
<p>Thanks for all your responses so far! I’ve enjoyed reading your perspectives and I’m pleased to learn that most of you stay away from rewriting (especially so with researching4emb, as I’m sure the temptation must have been great due to your professional editing job).</p>
<p>GeekMom63– Thank you, I’m glad that you found it thoughtful. I’m a “she” and, don’t worry, I’m not afraid of asking for help on other papers! I just wanted these essays to be wholly my own; otherwise, I wouldn’t have felt I completely earned these acceptances. </p>
<p>zoosermom– I find it really interesting that your D’s school actually requires teacher proofreading. At my school, no one who teaches senior year english is allowed to proofread admissions essays; on the contrary, the teacher faces disciplinary action if they do (then again, we don’t have that many people actually going to 4-years from my high school…). Just out of curiosity, what region are you located in?</p>
<p>All college essays are read by the english teachers at our local public and given back for revision and reread. it is part of the curriculum here. Of course, something like 99999.99999 percent of the kids here go away to a four year university.</p>
<p>this cracked me up:
</p>
<p>Every time my college age, now widely published poet (though dyslexic) daughter would hand in a poem to an English teacher, they would say, “This is really amazing. I’d like to send it to __________ magazine.” Then, they would send her to the social worker.</p>
<p>Senior year when her teacher asked them for poetry she refused. “But I’ve heard you’re poetry is unbelievable,” teacher said. “Yeah, well. I don’t want to have to go to the social worker and explain again that IT’S JUST A POEM.” :eek:</p>
<p>Wow, poetgrl. I feel for your D!</p>
<p>I agree with the majority. I would look at my kids’ essays for grammar errors or typos. There weren’t many; grammar has always been their strong point.</p>
<p>I’d also discuss global issues–but not write or get into specific words. More like–would that sentence or paragraph make more sense at the start, or later on? Or–this doesn’t seem clear. Questions, not answers. And no pen in hand; all verbal.</p>