<p>
[quote]
You can most certainly conclude that they will be diverse as regards income, and what their parents are able to put on the table.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Meaning...what? That the lower income students ate more pasta and rice and the higher income students ate more prime rib? (Guess which one sounds healthier?) Did the $60K students' upbringing suffer significantly in comparison the to $200K kids? I know kids from families of both incomes, and most of the time you would be hard-pressed to guess correctly which is which. They both have loving, educated parents, own cars and TV sets, go to public schools and have part-time jobs.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As for Princeton, neither of my kids chose to attend as an undergraduate. My older one will be starting her Ph.D. work there this fall.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That is why some of us have little problem following your change of heart and tone in the discussions about financial aid at the Ivies versus lesser competitive LAC's that have to disguise tuition discounting as financial aid. Now, it's only an emotional switch from Sophians to Tigers versus the rest of the Ivies.</p>
<p>Mini, I'm newer to reading your posts, but I get a sense from reading them that you yourself grew up in a lower socioeconomic class and always felt disadvantaged / that you didn't fit in because of that? Because if that's so, that may be partial truth and partial your-own-particular-makeup. </p>
<p>I also get the sense that you may be very sensitive to what you might perceive as snobbery or slights (even inadvertently) from people with more wealth? If I'm off base, please correct me, it's just an impression I get. Maybe I'm Pollyanna, but at my school, people mixed and mingled with little regard for economic background. Some people had more and others had less and that was just the way it was.</p>
<p>"Not just the Ivy League and its peer institutions, but also the mechanisms that get you there in the first place: the private and affluent public “feeder” schools, the ever-growing parastructure of tutors and test-prep courses and enrichment programs, the whole admissions frenzy and everything that leads up to and away from it. "</p>
<p>The article is fascinating, but may be a little dated. Most of the Ivies and the top LACs have both need-blind admissions and related programs to offer spots to students who---just a few short years ago---would not have been on the radar of the elite Adcoms, much less in the lecture halls.</p>
<p>That said, we all are a product not only of our family upbringing and the schools we attend as children, but also of all the myriad contacts we make through our formative years into adulthood. It is not a simple leap, then, to conclude that all of us have an obligation to attempt to enrich our lives by really understanding others who are different from us, not just religious, gender and social, but also educational differences? I for one do not have an Ivy education, but while I interact often with many others of different racial, religious and other backgrounds, I have not endeavored to reach out to those who have vastly different educational histories. </p>
<p>The author has many valid points, but shouldn't all of us take ownership of his implicit plea for a melding of everyone from everywhere?</p>
<p>
[quote]
That said, we all are a product not only of our family upbringing and the schools we attend as children, but also of all the myriad contacts we make through our formative years into adulthood. It is not a simple leap, then, to conclude that all of us have an obligation to attempt to enrich our lives by really understanding others who are different from us, not just religious, gender and social, but also educational differences?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>A fair point. I would surmise that the author himself came from a family background where no one "talked to the plumber," so it's no surprise he thought it was a Really Big Deal Requiring Special Preparation and Skills to talk to a tradesman, and thus got upset that his education hadn't prepared him adequately for it. It wasn't his education; it was his social upbringing in which no one talked to the help. I highly doubt that's a common social upbringing, however.</p>
<p>"Not just the Ivy League and its peer institutions, but also the mechanisms that get you there in the first place: the private and affluent public “feeder” schools, the ever-growing parastructure of tutors and test-prep courses and enrichment programs, the whole admissions frenzy and everything that leads up to and away from it. "</p>
<p>It sounds sooo unfair to put a stamp like this over whole body of population that applies to top schools.<br>
On the other hands, some very high caliber students are totally turned off by "whole admissions frenzy" and overcompetitive atmosphere of these top schools, that they choose not to apply to them at all, but rather be part of Honors or other selective group at their state university, ripping huge benefits of being recognized there as shining stars. They have amazing opportunities open for them there that would have never been available for them at top schools where they would be just another face in overcrowded classes. I know few people like these who are very happy at their state schools.</p>
<p>While the many of us view an "elite" institution to include places like Yale, Harvard, and Princeton, many regular folks have a different opinion. It's all relative based on where you're coming from. I talked to a women in recruiting a few days ago who was complaining about the "entitled students" at Drexel - who throw their resumes with high GPAs across the table and expect to land a job right away. She went on about how snobby and out of touch they were. Huh? Drexel? Entitled? Now, Drexel is a fine school but, in general ( I know there are exceptions), I don't think I would describe those kids as entitled. Kind of reminds me of that George Carlin phrase- "football scholarship". But hey, maybe now I'm the one getting snooty here...</p>
<p>As I and others have tried to point out, the sense of entitlement does not come from the institution one attends but from one's socio-economic background. The mediocre child of a rich family attending a mediocre college will feel more entitled than the student on full scholarship at HYP.
Not to say that Drexel is mediocre, but it is not HYP. But Drexel's COA are similar to those of HYP--in fact, a few thousands higher, so a large proportion of its student body must share the same socio-economic background as the full fare students at HYP and the same kinds of social expectations:
Costs for new students entering in the 2008–2009 academic year:
One Co-op Option/No Co-op Option (4 Years)
Tuition $35,100
Fees $1,970
Housing $7,275
Meal Plan $4,860
Total $49,205 Drexel</a> University | Undergraduate Admissions | Financing Options | Tuition & Fees</p>
<p>Yes, marite. Any sense of "entitlement" is set in place by one's socioeconomic and cultural background long before one darkens the door of whatever college.</p>
<p>marite; agree with your first paragraph.
But 87% of Drexel's kids receive some form of financial aid.
We live in a "well to do" area serviced by a very competitive HS. Although it's not too far away, Drexel has the interest of very few students here in this demographic. We get maybe one or two going there each year - out of a class of 400. The school has a history of appealing to working class or middle class students...although that may be changing due to merit aid packages.
I worked at Penn for years - and many of the kids I met at Penn had a very snobby attitude about Drexel. Drexel's campus is only a few blocks away and it's not pretty. They always have seemed to live in the shadow of the Ivy a few blocks away - so that's why I have to say I'm surprised by the "entitled " comment or the view that these kids are snobby. Doesn't seem to add up...</p>
<p>
[quote]
As I and others have tried to point out, the sense of entitlement does not come from the institution one attends but from one's socio-economic background. The mediocre child of a rich family attending a mediocre college will feel more entitled than the student on full scholarship at HYP
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well I disagree with this conclusion. The "sense of entitlement" comes from parents who raise their children to feel "entitled." It has nothing to do with socio-economic status. A child raised by wealthy parents can be more humble, grateful and appreciative than a lower-income child whose parents doted, spoiled and unjustly inflated his/her ego.</p>
<p>ZM, reverting back to post #4, I interpret the author's angst to be one of Pampered Lifestyle meets the rest of the world. (Most likely, in context, this means not the overnight franchisee success story or lottery winner, but one with a legacy of comfort & connections.) I think the point of the author is that an Ivy education tends to re-emphasize that same circle of privilege, rather than expanding the boundaries. </p>
<p>So my rsponse is, And? Like BarristerDad, I believe that at some point in late adolescence, it's the responsibility of the student to begin making his or her own social decisions, as well as educational and career ones. (Btw, the reverse is equally true: students from non-privileged, boundary-characterized urban poverty have to make similar decisions during what college years they also may encounter, to enlarge their social circles & discard differently narrow upbringings, if they also want to move forward in their lives.)</p>
<p>My parents role-modeled, not so much crossing economic lines -- although that incidentally happened, but crossing both age & nationality lines. Each of them had many true friends (not just associates or acquaintances) from 20 years - to 40 years+. The tradition is unbroken with me as well. They also had true friends of many nationalities, possibly resulting from our early international experiences as a young family, due to my father's occupation. Both practices enriched me.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The "sense of entitlement" comes from parents who raise their children to feel "entitled." It has nothing to do with socio-economic status. A child raised by wealthy parents can be more humble, grateful and appreciative than a lower-income child whose parents doted, spoiled and unjustly inflated his/her ego.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Exactly. Money isn't the defining factor. We now make good money, but my kids are definitely at a disadvantage than kids whose parents have less income at this moment in time but attended college. This mindset irks me personally because I do think that first-gen kids could often use a little extra help. I would daresay that Mini's kids have a substantial leg up on mine. I find the Drexel comments amusing because in my white trash neck of the woods, Drexel is quite the school and its attendees look down on those lower down the scale. Lots of Staten Island kids at Drexel and they are considered to have made it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So my rsponse is, And? Like BarristerDad, I believe that at some point in late adolescence, it's the responsibility of the student to begin making his or her own social decisions, as well as educational and career ones.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Oh, I know that and agree as well. My question was really directed at a couple of posters for whom income is the ultimate deciding factor and people who earn more than X dollars are to be sneered at. I simply don't agree with that.</p>
<p>I DO think there is a correlation with wealth -not necessarily income - but "old" wealth...
In our area, there tends to be a pretty clear distinction between "old money" and "new money". The old money types really never accept the new money folks into the "club". Many of the old money folks DO - at least to me -tend to be snobby, and out of touch with regular folks. When my kid was small, the ladies in this group hung out at the pool in an isolated bunch and wouldn't dare reach out to newcomers with uncertain backgrounds (like me). Probably not much there in the way of sparkling conversations with their plumbers either. Some of their kids go to Yale. Other kids, not nearly as bright, choose privates like Gettysburg, or George Washington. Certainly not Drexel or any of the state Us. The author would fit in well with this group...</p>