The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Parents Forum
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<p>I believe that the socio- in socio-economic is as important as the -economic part. And it involves not only one's larger community but one's family as well.
I interpret entitlement not so much as lack of humility but unexamined assumptions about the way life should be. Not all of it is due to socio-economic background, but a lot does depend on it. Someone who has always been surrounded by other rich folks may not understand that the cost of a movie ticket is a significant expense for a lower income student who has to earn every penny of his or her incidental expenses. It's not lack of humility but unfamiliarity with other people's lifestyles, and it usually comes across as entitlement. But it's also true that a student who has always been waited hand and foot by his or her parents will be spoiled and entitled, whatever the family's income. As a generalization, however, richer parents are better able to indulge their offspring.</p>

<p>ZSmom: I totally agree that Mini's Ds, children of a Williams graduate and Chicago Ph.D., are more advantaged than the first-generation college students whose parents are perhaps better off financially.</p>

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<p>Toneranger:</p>

<p>My experience has been the opposite, though in this case, the old money was quite limited. Perhaps, the most important factor is Yankee thriftiness in this case. My friend (whose name is the same as the name of a nearby town, and whose ancestors also founded another), is the kind who thinks he should do everything that he can by himself, and his wife should do the same. He refused to let her hire a cleaning lady even though she worked long hours and earned a high income. He pretty much does a lot of things that other people (including me) would hire professionals for. He is not atypical of the "old money" in my part of the world.</p>

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<p>"To hire" or "do it yourself" in some people's mind (including mine) has to do with unwillingness to share what you have and not indication of your socioeconomic status. In my opinion one hires out to give people a chance to earn a fair living. I try doing it as much as I can afford. I do not see any goodness in "do it yourself" unless you absolutely love doing it and unwilling to share it with somebody else or you cannot afford ask them which is not the case in above post.</p>

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<p>re: 'old money' -- I'd have to agree with marite.
We live in an area with both 'old' and 'new' money. The few remaining people you see doing their own lawns, cutting brush, painting, etc are usually the old money ones. These are not the people who tore down perfectly good houses to put up houses 3 times too big for their lots, or have lawn crews manicuring every inch. And while everyone's style is different, I see no difference in overall friendliness or approachability of either group. </p>

<p>What both groups do have in common around here is private schools. We have a good school system here, but very few families in this neighborhood send their kids to public, and a local real estate person said that many who move here plan on private right from the start.</p>

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<p>Miami:</p>

<p>Yankee thriftiness has nothing to do with stingyness. It's more a case of self-reliance. The rich do-it yourself types I know volunteer and contribute heavily to charity. I also know some nouveaux riches who treat their help abominably.</p>

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<p>I sort of come from old money, but also come from Yankee thriftiness. I hire a cleaning woman, because I hate cleaning house and it doesn't get done often enough if someone else doesn't come in. I don't hire a gardener for two reasons. The first is that I think I like gardening, though I don't like weeding enough to do it as often as I should. I also just don't like the style of the gardening crews around here. I don't think they understand the cottage garden/minimal grass/native plant look. I don't want a manicured yard. I'd never thought of hiring help as my bit to keep the economy rolling!</p>

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<p>I agree with Marite's definition of entitlement and that sometimes it really is a lack of examination of one's assumptions. But that ignorance is something I can excuse so long as it remains an assumption and doesn't pass over into a judgment. I remember laughing at the fact that all my mom friends just assumed that my van had automatic windows and doors, and kept asking why I had to put on the brake, unbuckle, and reach over to lower the window on the passenger side whenever they pulled alongside to talk to me in the school parking lot. I didn't laugh when one mom asked why on earth we even considered buying a van w/o automatic windows and doors. </p>

<p>As a person of modest means, what most irked me in college and still irritates is the habit of some rich people of labeling "unacceptable" or "intolerable" or "deprived" some aspect of my life that I find perfectly manageable and livable. Our house's A/C has been broken for a while, and since we need to replace the entire heating system as well at quite a cost, we had put off fixing it for the time being. Yes, sometimes it is uncomfortable, but not that often (it's not like we live in Florida) and I grew up without A/C. Furthermore, I find that staying inside in A/C all day makes me very lazy to take the kids out to play or to the pool because the contrast in temperature is hard to adjust to. Anyway, an affluent friend (who lives far away and so is not personally inconvenienced by my lack of A/C in the sense of suffering when she comes to visit or anything), commented that our not fixing it for so long is really "extreme" and questioned our financial solvency. Hmm. She must be friends with the woman who wondered why we water our lawn with a hose.</p>

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<p>Agreed. I'd never thought of my cleaning the house, painting the trim, planting trees, digging out brush (etc.) as an 'unwillingness to share.'</p>

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<p>I'm admittedly switching gears a bit, but I think one reason the economic levels of kids at elite private colleges may look different than those at state colleges is the way financial aid is treated. </p>

<p>For the children of divorce, in most cases, FAFSA-only schools give more aid than PROFILE schools. And I think it's less than 6 years ago that Profile stopped counting all four "parents" if both parents remarried. Now most top private schools couint the income of the custodial parent, plus EITHER the non-custodial parent's income OR the income of the custodial parent's spouse, whichever is higher. </p>

<p>As a divorced parent myself, I know a lot of divorced moms and their children who receive no financial aid at all or very little because the non-custodial dad's income counts, but dad won't pay the bills. Even when the dad--and it's usually, but not always the dad--is willing to pay something towards the cost of college, junior's life style, including the town he lives in and thus often the school district he attends, is determined by mom's income or at best, mom's income plus child support. </p>

<p>The recent change in Profile rules has increased the number of children of divorced parents attending Profile colleges. But there are still one heck of a lot of moms and kids who live frugally and take on extra debt to send the child of divorce to top colleges. </p>

<p>If you're not following my argument, my point is simply that some of the kids at Yale--or any other top college--who are NOT on financial aid are ineligible for it because of the income of a non-custodial parent who is able but unwilling to pay and whose income and assets do not contribute to the life style of these kids.</p>

<p>So, I wouldn't assume that every kid who isn't on financial aid REALLY has a family income of $200,000. In many cases that "family income" is shared by two families.</p>

<p>Additionally, some colleges do NOT count home equity for fin aid purposes. Others do. At those which do, a kid may be ineligible for aid because the value of the home his parents bought 30 years ago has increased. This doesn't affect life style in any other way, though.</p>

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<p>"So, I wouldn't assume that every kid who isn't on financial aid REALLY has a family income of $200,000. In many cases that "family income" is shared by two families."</p>

<p>Thank you! (Because of the earlier discussion about who/how many can be claimed to be of whatever income, based on available, published data.)</p>

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<p>But I also know of a divorced mother who has been in a long-term live-in relationship with someone who is not the father of her child. He makes tons of money, they live in a very expensive house and neighborhood, he pays all her bills and living expenses, but the EFC is $0 since the mom has no "income." (The biological father owns a small business and manages to report little "income.")</p>

<p>In this case, the divorce makes income levels look a lot lower than they actually are.</p>

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<p>This article bothers me on several levels, the basic premise that striving to be elite causes a fundamental disconnect with "the real world" is overly-simplistic and reeks of the ignorance which the author vindictively places at the feet of "elitists".
There is no inherent reason that a drive to succeed should necessarily be accompanied by a lack of practical communication skills; it seems to me that the problem that he has is the attitude, not the ability of the students in question.
Personally, I hang around bowling alleys, poker tables, I talk to the guy who pumps my gas, I'm going to a liberal arts college that no one has heard of outside of those applying to college. That being said, I still feel that being oriented towards a career and going to an institution which best enables one to achieve to success in that space is every bit as honorable as "writing poetry or becoming a school teacher," indulgent professions in and of themselves from an outsiders perspective.
This article reflects in a way, the narrow-mindedness that the article swiftly condemns, he who doth protesth too much?</p>

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<p>isla belter
My definition of an elite college or university is very hard to get into and very hard to get tossed out of.
You are getting close if you look at four year graduation rates over 75%.</p>

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<p>^^Very interesting--there are really not that many of those considering the number of institutions of higher learning in this country, are there?</p>

<p>Sometimes all of the concern over "first generation college students" rankles me, I must admit. My husband and I were both "first generation" (of course, we, as generations before us, got no "leg up" for that fact!). There were no books in either of our homes, no encyclopedias, though we did get Time Magazine (his parents got the NY Daily News). Both of our sets of parents were completely disinterested in our schoolwork.</p>

<p>But we did get ourselves library cards, and knew we could buy comics/magazines/newspapers at the corner store with money saved from our after school jobs! I was a bookworm for as long as I can remember, and he a math/science geek. </p>

<p>We looked up colleges on our own, figured out how to afford them on our own, and graduated on our own (no support system, from either homes or colleges). </p>

<p>Something in me recoils from blaming low SAT scores, drop-out rates and sundry other student ills on "socio-economic" status, lack of reading materials in the home, parental education, etc. If a kid is fairly bright, and wants to make something of himself, it takes a bit more doing, but it can be done.</p>

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<p>That's why they are elite. There are very few of them.</p>

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<p>Yeah, right. I commented that way, because somehow I don't think the 75% grad rate as the definition of "elite" is the one commonly used here on CC. :)</p>

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<p>My daughter attended an Elite prep school on a full need based scholarships. While still in high school, she interned with HYP medical professor and also worked with HYP Law Professors. She probably took 4-5 activities and scored in top 10% of her high school graduating class of an elite prep school. Currently she is enrolled in one of the HYP College and still receiving full needs based scholarships. This summer is working in a Hedge Fund at the Wall Street. </p>

<p>As you can see, my English is not that great. I never thought am an elite. Day in day out I deal with folks who never attended an elite college. Based on conversation, I know more than enough students who are attending HYP colleges and who are in similar situation. I am also sure that few close teachers know about our financial status. I wonder at Yale, this professor never met a girl like mine. Hmmm does not make sense.</p>

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<p>Daughter was a girl scout and has many friends who attend community colleges. I have sent this thread to her and would ask her opinion about it. And we are not Afro American.</p>

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<p>stockmarket you may not consider yourself elite. If your daughter attends HYP she is by any definition elite.</p>

<p>isla my definition factors in a schools ability to schedule classes so a student can graduate in four years. And I like the fact that only one public school UVA can do it. I can tease my friends in administrations of CAL, Washington and Reed that they aren't elite.</p>

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<p>When I read this article, I couldn't help but notice how eerily similar Deresiewicz's critique of students at elite schools is to David Brooks' in "The</a> Organization Kid," except for the fact that Deresiewicz approaches the issue from the left. In any case, this is definitely rehashed material. Three cheers for intellectualism!</p>