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The problem is that the author confuses an Ivy education with social elitism. There can be social elitism at flagship universities. Several years ago, thaks to a CC poster, I read the blog of a Phantom Professor who taught at Texas A&M. That Phantom Professor used to dish on students who came in wearing Prada clothes and Louis Vuitton bags and Manolo shoes. Some CC posters talked about the Porsches in the parking lot of Ole 'Bama. The country club set in Ala apparently is not rushing to attend Ivy League schools.
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<p>Marite, while I could not agree more with your statement about social elitism as flagship universities, the notorious Phantom Professor subjected her students to her amazingly cruel actions and words at a school that could not be more different from Texas A&M. The vindictive, maddened by envy and vitriol-spewing "professor" was backstabbing students of Southern Methodist University in Dallas, a wannabe elite school that is a regional legend in the minds of wealthy Texas residents, and a magnet for the underperforming scions of the "ruling class" in Big D, Texas, and close states.</p>
<p>While her descriptions of a number of students had a kernel of truth, it remains that this despicable and hypocritical human being was a true disgrace to all the decent people who make a living as a teacher or professor. </p>
<p>Fwiw, it does seem that William Deresiewicz has a few things in common with Phantom "Professor" Elaine Liner. Except for the differences in the quality of their education, both do share an amazing lack of perception of their students and an inability to battle their own demons. </p>
<p>Shame on both of them!</p>
<p>PS As far as developing an ability to speak to a plumber, a degree in Spanish would seem most beneficial.</p>
<p>Mea culpa. You corrected me once about TX A&M and SMU, and I made the same mistake again. Grrr.... I did detect a lot of envy on the part of the Phantom Prof, badly disguised as disdain.</p>
<p>PS: Our plumber is Boston-Irish, our house painters were from Colombia, our floor sanders from Vietnam. When we did work on our house, our contractor was Italian and loved bel canto opera. He and my H had many happy conversations.</p>
<p>I think you've hit the target about Deresiewicz' lack of perception of his own students. Combine that with an inability to talk to a plumber.</p>
<p>Let's see now... He is complaining about the problems of elitism and yet he can't see the differences around him. He seems to miss the point that he is part of the problem he describes and in fact is the poster boy for it. Given that it took him 10 years of teaching to come upon the problem, perhaps in another 10 he'll figure out that the problem was him. Ouch!</p>
<p>"I regret to say that this thread's general level of discourse so far, which amounts for the most part to mockery and personal insults, has done little to discredit the claims made in the article."</p>
<p>Not that I didn't refute most of his claims, but since when are broad generalizations given without a shred of non-anecdotal evidence due a serious response? Just because he has a ph.d next to his name doesn't excuse him from the standards everyone else is held to.</p>
<p>re bartleby #44: I was and am aware of your post #9, and I took care to say "for the most part". </p>
<p>I will note, however, that you appear to agree with one of the writer's main claims, which is that pre-professionalism, "vocational training", is dominant in elite colleges. You, however, consider this to be a good thing, and indeed you would go so far as to use the British undergraduate system here.</p>
<p>^^ I would say that's actually more the point/ interesting idea in the article, particularly the part about Intellectualism. Pre-professionalism stifles the growth of the soul.</p>
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Why? Do most plumbers have a degree in Spanish?
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<p>In the future, I'll make sure to identify a lighthearted comment with a proper warning and add one of those winking smilies. And, if that matters, where I live a full 100% of the plumbers speak Spanish. </p>
<p>"I will note, however, that you appear to agree with one of the writer's main claims, which is that pre-professionalism, "vocational training", is dominant in elite colleges. You, however, consider this to be a good thing, and indeed you would go so far as to use the British undergraduate system here."</p>
<p>Well, no, I don't agree that it's dominant. Elite colleges have all sorts of breadth requirements, all sorts of 'interdisciplinary' BS classes. College admissions in the Ivies still looks for the 'well-rounded' student, as opposed to the angled one who shows brilliance in math but can't write a paper if his life depended on it. I just said I wouldn't mind if we did have the British system of education here. The advantage to society of having a chemist be closely acquainted with the principles of post-modernism is...slight.</p>
<p>No, but what does that matter anyway, unless you're particularly interested in making friends with plumbers.</p>
<p>And to head off the potential replies, that's not a knock on wanting to make friends with plumbers, its a literal statement. Take it at face value.</p>
<p>^^. Indeed. The author mixes up pre-professionalism, intellectualism, Ivy education and social elitism and serves it all up in an ill-argued article.</p>
<p>Actually, I think pre-professionalism ultimately leads the other way: doctors generally have to talk to patients from all walks of life; depending on speciality, it is the same thing with many lawyers. My Ivy-educated father would agree with Xiggi that mastery of Spanish was a useful skill for him to have when he opened his practice in a border city. I don't think the Ivy education particularly prepares them for those conversations -- but the pre-professional students may have a very different outlook. </p>
<p>On the other hand, getting a PhD in English lit and then opting to teach on an Ivy campus is a sure way for an effete intellectual to wrap himself in a cloak of Ivy-tower intellectualism... and he probably meets more than his share of "elite" students in his classes, given his specialty.</p>
<p>Plenty of Ivy Leaguers are sports fans and I'm sure they could easily talk to the BoSox fan plumber about how the BoSox are barely keeping pace with the Devil Rays. It would be a bit odd to start talking to him about the theme of friendship in Jane Austen's works, but then again, I wouldn't talk to anyone about that who doesn't tell me they are an English lit major. He's projecting his own social incompetency on everybody else.</p>
<p>I wish we could ask the late Sen. Moynihan how he would assess this opinion piece. It was Tom Brokaw, I believe, that recently related the following anecdote on Meet the Press about Moynihan and Tim Russert. (The text is lifted from an unrelated website but is consistent with what Brokaw (?) said).</p>
<p>Tim Russert was a graduate of a law school in Cleveland, Ohio when he went to work on the staff of New York Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan. Russert was surrounded by Ivy League college graduates and felt he might not be the one for the job. Moynihan took him aside and told him, Tim, what these people know you can learn. What you know they cant learn.</p>
<p>Apparently, the author and I were at Columbia undergrad at about the same time. You can bet there were a lot of working class kids on campus in those days, including myself. Sure, there were rich kids too. I had no problem finding an interesting mix, even among the faculty.</p>
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It didn’t dawn on me that there might be a few holes in my education until I was about 35. I’d just bought a house, the pipes needed fixing, and the plumber was standing in my kitchen. There he was, a short, beefy guy with a goatee and a Red Sox cap and a thick Boston accent, and I suddenly learned that I didn’t have the slightest idea what to say to someone like him.
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<p>The author is not a patch on Bartlett Giamatti: Andover and Yale-educated Giamatti, professor of English literature like the author of the article and president of Yale, had no trouble talking about the Red Sox:</p>
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Giamatti stayed in New Haven to receive his doctorate in 1964. He became a professor of Comparative Literature at Yale University, an author, and master of Ezra Stiles College at Yale. He spent a brief period teaching at Princeton, but was at Yale for most of his academic life. Giamatti's scholarly work focused on English Renaissance literature, particularly Edmund Spenser, and relationships between English and Italian Renaissance poets. His work on the genre of pastoral and on the influence of Ludovico Ariosto in England remains influential....
Giamatti served as President of Yale University from 1978 to 1986. He was the youngest President of the University in its history. He also served on the Board of Trustees of Mount Holyoke College for many years, participating fully despite his Yale and baseball commitments...
Giamatti had a lifelong interest in baseball (he was a die-hard Boston Red Sox fan). He became President of the National League in 1986, and later Commissioner of Baseball in 1989. During his stint as National League president, Giamatti placed an emphasis on the need to improve the environment for the fan in the ballparks. He also decided to make umpires strictly enforce the balk rule, and supported "social justice" as the only remedy for the lack of presence of minority managers, coaches, or executives at any level in Major League Baseball.</p>
<p>While still serving as National League president, Giamatti suspended Pete Rose for 30 games after Rose shoved umpire Dave Pallone on April 30. Giamatti also suspended Los Angeles Dodgers pitcher Jay Howell, who was caught using pine tar during the National League Championship Series.</p>
<p>Giamatti, whose tough dealing with Yale's union favorably impressed Major League Baseball owners, was unanimously elected to succeed Peter Ueberroth as commissioner on September 8, 1988. Giamatti was commissioner on August 24, 1989 when Pete Rose voluntarily agreed to permanent ineligibility from baseball. As reflected in the agreement with Pete Rose, Giamatti was determined to maintain the integrity of the game during his brief commissionership.
<p>"Another problem is that he projects his own limitations on to all Ivy League grads. He assumes that since <em>he</em> is incapable of making 10 minutes of small talk with a plumber that no one with an elite education can do so either."</p>
<p>I think coureur hits it right on the head, and I second DocT's 'whiny bonehead' diagnosis. </p>
<p>In terms of homogenous student bodies, I think the "elite" colleges DO make an effort to increase socioeconomic diversity, and they have the funding to do so.</p>
<p>And re: 'bubbles,' and schools with more homogenous student bodies, I'd be more apt to question some of the good, though not "elite" small private colleges -- a few in upstate NY come to mind. With second S. starting his college search next year, some of these sounded like possibilities, but on closer look the tuition seems prohibitive for anyone in the middle and upper middle. I think the ivies make good use of their resources.</p>