The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

Parents Forum
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<p>mini, I appreciate your frequent autobiographical statements about college experiences & perceptions, but yours are not universal. Many lower-income students do <em>not</em> have income branded on forehead or speech, & -- like many of those born into money -- have the class not to initiate discussions of money, or lack thereof.</p>

<p>You also continue to believe that there is an absent middle class at all upper-level schools, which is also simply inaccurate. There may be fewer outright Pell grantees at particular U's, but there are additionally different configurations of economic class since you attended yours.</p>

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<p>"have the class not to initiate discussions of money, or lack thereof."</p>

<p>I see that as PROBLEM, not a good thing.</p>

<p>"You also continue to believe that there is an absent middle class at all upper-level schools, which is also simply inaccurate. There may be fewer outright Pell grantees at particular U's, but there are additionally different configurations of economic class since you attended yours."</p>

<p>The numbers I provided for Yale are CURRENT numbers, not those from 30 years ago (when they were more diverse than they are today.) Princeton, to its great credit, has made a great effort to increase socio-economic diversity, to the point where they are now where they were 30 years ago (which I think is great!) The precentage of middle quintile, and upper-middle quintile students at Yale (and many other schools) is close to a vanishing point.</p>

<p>The general configurations of class are pretty simple to arrive at from the currently available data. It requires much more income/assets to be a full-pay student today that it was 30 years ago, while they percentage of full-pay students remains (with changes at a few institutions) what it used to be. In other words, the wealthy students are wealthier than they used to be, and the gap between wealthy students and poorer ones on many "prestige" campuses is significantly wider than it used to be. This has nothing to do with "autobiography", and everything to do with publicly available data.</p>

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<p>Mini: Money, or lack thereof, is not the reason for a person's inability to find a common topic of conversation with someone else. If an English prof cannot talk about anything but English lit, that's because that prof has no life, not because he teaches at Yale.</p>

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<p>I forwarded this article to my son who is a junior at a top 25 college and it really resonated with him. We have a low EFC and my son receives the Pell Grant. My son does OK talking to just about anybody, but what I found interesting is that he often plays ping pong or pool with the maintenance staff in the dorms. He says it reminds him of the guys back home. </p>

<p>When my son was interviewing at colleges, one retired prof steered the interview to our income level and how we get by on so little. That still bothers me. </p>

<p>To me, it wasn't that the prof couldn't manage small talk with the plumber, but that he had an aha moment of self-realization. I thought the article was insightful.</p>

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<p>
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The numbers I provided for Yale are CURRENT numbers, not those from 30 years ago (when they were more diverse than they are today.) Princeton, to its great credit, has made a great effort to increase socio-economic diversity, to the point where they are now where they were 30 years ago (which I think is great!) The precentage of middle quintile, and upper-middle quintile students at Yale (and many other schools) is close to a vanishing point.

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<p>Out of curiosity, Mini, except for your daughter upcoming attendance, is there a reason why Princeton seems to have earned a dearer spot in your heart? Are there specific policies that Princeton has implemented in the past decade that differentiates them from Harvard, Yale, or Stanford? </p>

<p>I happen to think that the overwhelming majority of our most selective colleges should be recognized for their efforts in landing low-income students. However, I don't quite understand some of your statements regarding the differences among colleges. A few years ago, you extolled the virtues of Smith College and lauded their financial aid, and this despite that their statistics in this regard hardly deserved such glowing accolades, as market imposed tuition discounting and need-based financial aid are not necessary the same thing. </p>

<p>I am curious about what has happened in New Jersey that is so different from what happened in Palo Alto, Cambridge or New Haven? Of course, we know that the departure of a certain Fred has widened the gates for the graduates of your HS alma mater, but I doubt that it could be this single.</p>

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<p>
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From firsthand experience (my own), I can tell you that Pell grantees and the like OFTEN have their parents' incomes branded on them through their speech. Folks with higher incomes often try to make believe it isn't there, or ignore it altogether (which sometimes hurts! and is precisely why Dartmouth has hired Class Action on a multi-year contract).

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<p>I found that everyone mingled quite nicely at my own top 20 school, regardless of socioeconomic background. Yes, there were clearly some kids with a lot of money, but no real "flaunting." I think sometimes those who have less may be unnecessarily resentful and jealous of those who have more, and perceive what they have as "flaunting." There's always going to be someone who has more than you, so resenting other people for what they were born with isn't really a pleasant way to live.</p>

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<p>"I happen to think that the overwhelming majority of our most selective colleges should be recognized for their efforts in landing low-income students."</p>

<p>So do I, xiggi.</p>

<p>mini said:
"Princeton, to its great credit, has made a great effort to increase socio-economic diversity, to the point where they are now where they were 30 years ago (which I think is great!)"</p>

<p>Yes. (And then you need to remove Princeton from your generalizations, please.)</p>

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<p>If the author of the article wants to decry the lack of diversity at top colleges, that's okay with me, though this has less to do with the education provided at those colleges than with the experiences of the students prior to college. Back of geographical diversity makes it difficult for suburban kids to appreciate life on a farm or in an inner city ghetto equally. Kids who have not traveled much are equally baffled by Americans from different regions and by foreign students.
There is also the matter of interests: Is the prof able to talk to engineers and computer scientists any better than he can with Red Sox fans or plumbers? Stephen Jay Gould had no trouble talking and writing about baseball.</p>

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<p>For those that may not be that familiar with Cornell, it's an environment which blends Ivy League and Land Grant school- from it's College of Agriculture and Life Science to Engineering and Arts and Sciences. Because many NYS kids take advantage of lower tuition costs, it does have a good percentage of regular middle class folk attending, the sons and daughters of plumbers, union members teachers etc. I remember my Brooklyn born d telling me about a conversation she had with her upstate CALS friend about tractors.That may not be a big topic of conversation at many of the other elite schools, but at Cornell, talk of agriculture, labor issues, nutrtion and other real world concerns are commonplace.
I cannot tell you how much my appreciation towards Cornell and its mission has increased over the years my d attended.<br>
I think the saying goes -- it's an elite school but not elitist. </p>

<p>OK- that's my proud momma statement about my kids alma mater.</p>

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<p>The author of the article is clearly uneducated in too many ways to list........I can't decide if he is just ignorant despite his "elite" education (and am thinking his parents wasted their money) or if he is so self-absorbed that he chose this route to toot his own horn. If so, he is woefully off key.....</p>

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<p>Actually, I think it would be a great chance to educate this prof on those things in life that are really important...they often don't cost money or can't be bought with $$.</p>

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<p>There are few benefits to diversity unless such diversity is the subject of respectful inquiry and dialogue.</p>

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<p>How does respectful inquiry work? "Tell me what it's like being so rich"?</p>

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<p>The article makes a number of generalizations that, as many posters have been quick to point out, do not apply to the majority of Ivy League students today. But I thought that the author made a number of good points, and I would like to get everyone's reaction. So here goes:</p>

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Getting through the gate is very difficult, but once you’re in, there’s almost nothing you can do to get kicked out. Not the most abject academic failure, not the most heinous act of plagiarism, not even threatening a fellow student with bodily harm—I’ve heard of all three—will get you expelled. The feeling is that, by gosh, it just wouldn’t be fair—in other words, the self-protectiveness of the old-boy network, even if it now includes girls. Elite schools nurture excellence, but they also nurture what a former Yale graduate student I know calls “entitled mediocrity.”

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<p>I know far to many students who fit this description to a tee. HYP have come a long way in the last fifty years, but there's still a long road ahead.</p>

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Professors at top research institutions are valued exclusively for the quality of their scholarly work; time spent on teaching is time lost. If students want a conversion experience, they’re better off at a liberal arts college.

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<p>This is an example of the danger in assuming, as many high schoolers do, that the most prestigious schools provide the best undergraduate education.</p>

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The college career office has little to say to students not interested in law, medicine, or business, and elite universities are not going to do anything to discourage the large percentage of their graduates who take their degrees to Wall Street. In fact, they’re showing them the way. The liberal arts university is becoming the corporate university, its center of gravity shifting to technical fields where scholarly expertise can be parlayed into lucrative business opportunities.</p>

<p>It’s no wonder that the few students who are passionate about ideas find themselves feeling isolated and confused. I was talking with one of them last year about his interest in the German Romantic idea of bildung, the upbuilding of the soul. But, he said—he was a senior at the time—it’s hard to build your soul when everyone around you is trying to sell theirs.

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<p>In recent years, HYP have responded by funding postgraduate internships at non-profits, but the problem still exists, and programs like Teach for America can only do so much to solve it.</p>

<p>Deresiewicz made a number of unsubstantiated generalizations which should be disregarded without a second look. But it would be a mistake to ignore the worthwhile points he makes and continue to proclaim the unmitigated excellence of Ivy League schools.</p>

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<p>I don't know any one who got kicked out of Harvard, but I also don't know anyone who did anything terrible. I do know at least one person who flunked a couple of courses as a freshman, who took some time off and went back and did fine. </p>

<p>I agree that HYP don't do much to nurture or recognize good teaching (except for a few lecturers who get hired for ever because they are good teachers), but, I'm not convinced that it is actually that much better at LACs. I have some friends who were more interested in teaching than research and have been teaching at various LACs since. But as far as I know no one ever gave them any advice as to how to actually be better at teaching - they just have bigger teaching loads, smaller labs (they are biologists) and fewer publications than other Caltech Ph.D's.</p>

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At the same time, perhaps this experience is what drives me to learn all I can about the American public education system. I have this crazy dream that there's some way we CAN provide quality education to every child in this country, regardless of the zip code they live in and what kind of parents they have. By some miracle, public education let me make it, now it's time to make this opportunity available to everyone.

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<p>Why would graduating from Princeton stand in the way of your "crazy dream?" Do you thnk anyone would look down at an attempt to "to learn all I can about the American public education system"? Actually, the country desperately needs Princeton graduates who will try to become experts in the American education system, and help overhaul a public system that has been allowed to fail so many for so long. </p>

<p>Your crazy dream that "there's some way we CAN provide quality education to every child in this country, regardless of the zip code they live in and what kind of parents they have is not that crazy." It's simply not what our current system is designed to do with a quasi monopoly that rewards mediocrity and lack of competence and dedication. This will not happen until a new generation finds the courage and desire to reverse all the damage that has been done to our education system since the 1960s. Alas, the groups that repress all possibilities of constructive changes won't abandon their gravy train without kicking and screaming or calling upon the politicians they have bribed for generations. </p>

<p>Bill Gates, at the 2007 Harvard commencement encouraged and challenged all of us to become an expert in one field and seek to make ... changes. However, he did not say that gaining the expertise should be an immediate step that follows college. </p>

<p>The only thing that is not crazy is dreaming about better days. Undoing the disasters of yesterday is OUR challenge if not our duty.</p>

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<p>
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Professors at top research institutions are valued exclusively for the quality of their scholarly work; time spent on teaching is time lost. If students want a conversion experience, they’re better off at a liberal arts college.

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<p>Not true. It used to be, but not any more. Teaching IS taken into consideration at research universities.</p>

<p>I looked up the percentage of students who could be considered pre-professional at Harvard and Yale., using as a yardstick the enrolments in government/political science; economics and the various biological sciences subfields. The Harvard student body is clearly more pre-professional with 2/3 of the students in one of these fields. At Yale, it's half and half. It does not seem to me a bad proportion. But why harp on Ivies and not on tech schools?</p>

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I don't know any one who got kicked out of Harvard, but I also don't know anyone who did anything terrible.

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<p>At Harvard? Try plagiarizing an entire novel and lying about it in total impunity. Of course, it's hard to kick out a student for such violation when faculty gets a free pass on similar ethics and honor violations. </p>

<p>The only terrible thing was that a fraud such as Kavvya Viswanathan was not kicked out of the most venerable academic institution in the world. We'd expect a community college to be less forgiving.</p>

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<p>Indeed. Can one say Wendy Kopp? Teach for America?</p>

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<p>Ah, so it's not longer about diversity, but about respect. What shall we tell admissions offices? "Evaluate applicants on their ability to engage in respectful inquiry and dialogue with 9 being the highest and 1 the lowest?"<br>
Or should Ivies ditch diversity altogether? Then it won't matter anymore how many Pell grantees they have, will it?</p>