The elitism debate

Parents Forum
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<p>I'm pretty new to this forum, so I hope I don't offend anybody with this post. But, as I read the thread below concerning the number of kids in public educational settings, I was struck by a notion which permeated the thread (other than in calmom's comments), namely, that "elite"/"gifted" kids necessarily "fit" better in smaller, private, "elite" schools. To be sure, some do; others, however, do not. The pigeonholing of very bright students is, in my opinion, a search for an ideal rather than a realization that bright kids have vastly different personalities, interests and needs.</p>

<p>There are a lot of experiences at large, public universities which aren't present at smaller ones. Believe it or not, a lot of very, very smart college kids love particpating in the atmosphere of big time college athletics, and it doesn't mean that their quest for intellectual fulfillment is any less than if they did not. Others like the greater number of concerts on campus--still others like the 400 or so extracurricular activities available. Some like the increased number of students available to form friendships, study groups, or yes, even romantic involvements. None of these things detract from the college experience.</p>

<p>The above experiences are not for all kids. Some like more intimate settings, and more "face time" with professors and/or counselors. Others are drawn to specific opportunities at smaller schools. Some could care less about spectator sports. This doesn't make them smarter, dumber, or more or less intellectually curious than their public school counterparts--it just makes them different. </p>

<p>My oldest daughter is a high school junior. She's very bright, has done very well, and could likely choose, if she wanted, between a large number of highly ranked schools. She won't consider any school though which doesn't have a big time sports program--she wants to be a sportwriter, and for her, college football Staurdays on a big stage are an essential, as is a journalism program affording her opportunities for a wide range of internships. On the other hand, my younger daughter, though 11, appears to be headed in a completely opposite direction as far as interests and "fit" are concerned--she may well end up at a smaller school. Does this somehow make my youngest more "intellectually curious"? I don't think so.</p>

<p>FWIW, my wife and I attended a very large undergraduate school--the University of Michigan. We have the resources (fortunately) to send our kids to the college they (not we) choose. I have never regretted my decision to go to Michigan over Brown--a decision which was not made for financial reasons (among other things, I'm not from Michigan), but rather because it was where I felt more comfortable. It hasn't made me less happy, successful or fulfilled. Yes, not everyone at UM had SAT scores in the range mine were, but you know what--that happens in real life too. I have learned a lot from my associations with people who were were academically less successful than I, even as I have learned from those with similar or superior success records. </p>

<p>I've lurked for awhile, and learned a lot about colleges and kids from this Board. I don't mean to burst anybody's bubble--those of you whose kids go on to Ivies or elite LACs should be justiably proud of your children's accomplishments, and I sincerely hope that the "fit" at these schools is terrific for them. The idea, though, that the "experience" is better at those schools for all achievers is, in my opinion, dead wrong.</p>

<p>Have at me.</p>

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<p>I agree with you. Fit is important for all students, not just gifted ones. There are gifted students for whom their best fit is a large public institution just as there are nongifted kids whose best fit is a small private institution. Care needs to be taken with all students to find the environment that suits them best. One can't assume that one size fits all students who have the same level of intelligence.</p>

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<p>I agree with you. Fit is important for all students, not just gifted ones. There are gifted students for whom their best fit is a large public institution just as there are nongifted kids whose best fit is a small private institution. Care needs to be taken with all students to find the environment that suits them best. One can't assume that one size fits all students who have the same level of intelligence.</p>

<p>I think that sometimes people assume that fit is more important for gifted kids because since there appears to be a genetic component to giftedness, gifted kids may be more likely to have gifted parents who are much more obsessive about researching things in general. Those parents may nitpick more about the college selection process than do other parents, who may have a more laid back attitude about things and to be less likely to do extra research when selecting colleges for their kids.</p>

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<p>dadx3,</p>

<p>Like you, I went to a large public U. In addition to the reasons you mentioned, I wasn't looking to get to know my instructors on a personal basis. For me, a certain level of anonymity is good. I was more comfortable doing research in the laboratory & the library then having deep philosophical discussions in the classroom. I was able to work closely with a well respected professor in independent research, but had no desire to socialize with him or be his friend. I graduated summa cum laude, went to just about every basketball game and concert and had an active social life.</p>

<p>I don't believe the same type of school I thrived in would be an ideal fit for my daughter. She does enjoy being loved by her teachers, debating in the classroom, etc. For her, a medium sized school would probably be best (she needs to have a large enough "dating pool"). She is mostly applying to these type of schools along with our huge flagship state U.</p>

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<p>There are a lot of private, schools including some of the ivies which are very large and have big time semi-professional sports programs. Not all public colleges are large.</p>

<p>Most of us are just trying to help our kids find and gain admission to the most suitable schools. Many of us have had kids suffer through years of no child left behind, mass education. When it comes to college it is important to find something better. Not all of us live in Michigan or states with great public universities. Even those who do often find they are looking for something more.</p>

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<p>My daughter a HS senior sounds just like yours. She wants to be a sports journalist, and a big time sports program is very important to her. Her grades and tests give her a lot of options. I cannot tell you how may times she has been told by counselors, teachers and others that she should be applying to small LACs, such as Swarthmore, Amherst and Vasser. Her list includes Syracuse, Northwestern, Penn State and U of Miami. She wants a school where Saturday's mean painting your face and going off to the game!
She is applying to Columbia and NYU as well, but I think it's more pressure from others,than her desire to actually go there.
A counselor (not hers) asked her yesterday where she is applying. After telling her, the counselor said, "you have too many safeties and not enough schools where someone like you should apply". Her response..."Call them what you will, but they are all schools I will be happy at, I don't care about rankings or stats".</p>

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<p>I agree- I think choosing a small LAC involves sacrificing some things. My son has a chance to attend some of the top LACs as an athlete. He has visited several of them, along with some larger Ivys. He is being told by many people, including teachers and other kids, that he would be crazy to give up the chance to attend one of these LACs. However, he has been at boarding school for high school and is ready for a larger school in a more urban setting. His safety schools are Georgia and Indiana (neither of which is our state u) and he really has some misgivings about not attending one of these two schools if he is accepted to his ED school. He would love the atmosphere, the athletics and the anonymity. I can honestly say that I would be proud to have him at either of those state universities.</p>

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<p>dadx3, This is a place for students and parents to find out more than anyone ever needs to know about the college application process and all that entails and all that follows from it. </p>

<p>My son located the school that he now attends on this forum. And he hasn't been back since. I have found a little space of America and I will stay for awhile. Besides the college process is still a big part of my life. It's all new.</p>

<p>Since I am in a school, I speak with students when they are interested in attending college in the states. I know a whole lot more than I did a year ago! I have resolved, personally, the fight over what school is the best. None. I have my preferences....if I was going to apply tomorrow, but then, like they say, "in your dreams!" Next life.</p>

<p>I had a great college experience as a young person at a large private university with the best football team in the nation at the time. </p>

<p>Welcome to the fray!</p>

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<p>We've got Missouri, Syracuse and Miami (a public and two privates, albeit larger ones) on the table at this preliminary stage--Northwestern is 10 miles from where we live, and she feels it's too close. She doesn't really care if they're "safeties" or not--they have terrific j schools, and that's what matters to her.</p>

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<p>Dadstimesthree:</p>

<p>Welcome aboard. The three schools your D has identified are excellent for journalism. If this is what she wants to pursue, she should not let herself be distracted by the opinions of others, or USN&WR rankings.
All students ideally should find a college that suits their needs. It can be small, it can be medium-sized, or it can be large (there are some quite large private universities, too, not just public ones).
In the case of my S, who is supremely indifferent to sports, UMich's great athletics program would not have been a draw. Neither, for that matter, Williams. Both have great math departments. But UMich is too large a university and Williams does not have the graduate courses that he will soon need. This is the sort of issues that limit the range of suitable schools, just as your D's interest in journalism narrowed down her list of colleges (thank goodness!)</p>

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<p>For the OP's daughter, what about Wisconsin? Pretty good J school (though I suppose not in Syracuse league), with a number of Pulitzer winners among its graduates. And the Daily Cardinal had a female sports editor in the 1960s (and who knows how many female sportswriters or editors since then). And it's a wonderful place to go to school in just about any respect.</p>

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<p>I'd love her to consider Wisconsin, even though it would mean she'd root against my beloved Wolverines. Her concern at this point is that Wisconsin does not allow entry into the journalism program until junior year, whereas the others, although heavily weighted to a general, liberal arts curriculum in years one and two, allow for freshman admission to the j school and some immersion before junior year. It's early in her junior year though, so you can't tell whether this will remain an important consideration. Indeed, I'd say you can't tell whether she'll change her mind on the whole journalism interest but for the strength of her passion for it and the fact that she's wanted to do this since middle school and never varied.</p>

<p>Thanks for the tip and info.</p>

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<p>
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In addition to the reasons you mentioned, I wasn't looking to get to know my instructors on a personal basis. For me, a certain level of anonymity is good.

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<p>
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is ready for a larger school in a more urban setting.

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<p>Bingo. That's my boys in a nutshell.</p>

<p>In fact, S1 has a seminar class this semester and isn't crazy about it. Why? The oft expressed opinions of his suburban classmates aren't as compelling as a reknowned professor's opinion. He went ot a high school with Harkenss style classrooms and hated that too--because 2/3rds of what is expressed is insipid and juvenile--as it would be coming from unformed intellects.</p>

<p>Give him the 200 person class with the brilliant prof any day of the week!</p>

<p>Nice post dadx3. Well done.</p>

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<p>Does USC have journalism? Because they sure have sports!</p>

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<p>Four words: THE Ohio State University
Two more words: Michigan Sucks</p>

<p>Seriously though I was actually shocked when I found people on this board who thought a tiny little D-3 LAC would be better than a totally awesome State school. To each his own I guess.</p>

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<p>Dadtimesthree: welcome from a fellow Wolverine!!! Both my kids, for different reasons, turned down UMich, and I had mixed feelings both times. It's a fabulous school, but surely not comparable to a run of the mill state school.</p>

<p>My D turned it down because of distance and because they didn't have the program she thought she wanted--which she ended up changing anyway. She went to another OOS school, not nearly UM's caliber, was miserable, changed her major and her college to a "selective" LAC, and was happy. I think she'd have been very happy at UM. My S was definitely the big U type, but also a very smart under motivated kid, I think at UM, even in Honors, he could have gotten too distracted. The private U he's at has students who are more uniformly committed to academics than how i remember it at UM. And he gave up his beloved sports atmosphere to go there, so it must have been calling him for other reasons. UM was his second choice, and he would've gone there happily.</p>

<p>For your D, with a definite interest already established, you seem to be making great choices. (I tried to talk my S into applying to Northwestern, but he would not consider applying to any Big Ten school besides UM. :) )</p>

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<p>There are several separate overlapping characteristics at issue here: size, location, public vs private, selectivity, athletics and that elusive quality of “intellectual curiosity”. Different schools offer varying combinations of these attributes. You seldom get everything on your wish-list, but if you know what's important to you it helps to narrow in your focus.</p>

<p>When I was growing up in Michigan in the 60’s there was never any question but that I would go to UMich. In retrospect, I probably would have done better at a smaller school as I was at the time a bright but extremely introverted teenager, but that’s water under the bridge. I received a fine education and all over the world my alma mater is recognized and respected. </p>

<p>My son only briefly considered UMich; he’s at Williams which while high on the “elite” scale also takes plenty of criticism for its focus on sports and perceived lack of intellectualism. My husband on the third hand went to a progressive fine arts college and received little very along the way of formal academics. He is, however, one of the most intellectually curious people I know. So within my own family I see three completely different equally good approaches to being happy, healthy and wise.</p>

<p>Things I’ve learned from reading this forum and from my son’s experience: That athletics and intellectualism are NOT mutually exclusive. That selectivity does not equate to traditional WASP-y elitism. That opportunities are more determined by accessibility than by quantity. That finding a good fit often involves setting priorities and accepting tradeoffs.</p>

<p>So, dadtimesthree, you won’t get any argument from me. Welcome and good luck to your daughter in finding that fit that’s right for her.</p>

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<p>Dadtimesthree - No matter where your daughter goes to school, she'll be rooting against your beloved Wolverines. Get used to it. During a trip to the Midwest recently my husband, a Notre Dame grad, would not stop in Ann Arbor so my S could visit their very highly regarded math department. He said it was too far out of the way, even though we were close by. I know it had nothing to do with distance and everything to do with football.</p>

<p>As for those of us that don't see their State U as an option for their kids. Not only is our State U. not a mediocre academic institution, the football team stinks. I didn't even think they had one until I just asked my husband who keeps track of these things.</p>

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<p>I'm not sure that "size matters" in the elitism debate as much as cost. For an out of state student the University of Michigan is not cheap, and for OOS students most likely just as competitive as the other elite institutions. Highly selective and expensive (for OSS students) schools such as Michigan would be considered by many to be in that elite category even though it is indeed large.</p>

<p>I also don't think the sports vs. intellectualism is defining either; many of the elite schools also feature sports as a big part of student life, e.g., Duke, NW, Stanford, UCB and yes even the Ivy "League."</p>

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<p>Another point: Trying to join and write for UM's newspaper is not viable for a freshman. In a smaller college, one can be welcomed as a new reporter.</p>