<p>I want to argue with my mom's assertion that highly selective (Ivy-selective) = smarter kids than anywhere else = the school that would be best for me because I should be "surrounded by really smart kids" and won't find as-smart kids at non-Ivy schools.</p>
<p>I'm someone with no interest in scientific research.</p>
<p>I want to study creative writing, Russian, and art.</p>
<p>Any statistics or finely-tuned rhetoric would be appreciated.</p>
<p>Speaking from the Midwest, a lot of students are not Ivy-driven. One student from my class attended Stanford, another UMiami, and another Grinnell. Those are the only three top schools I can think of that someone from my class is attending. I know of one student from the class of '07 is attending Northwestern but I dont know of any other top schools but I havent been keeping track either. </p>
<p>EVERYONE who was in the top 25% of my class (220) is attending Northern Iowa, Iowa, Iowa State, the three schools I previously mentioned, in the military (not the academies), or one of the several D3 private LACs here in Iowa--Simpson, Luther, Wartburg, Central, etc. They choose this because 1) the state schools are significantly cheaper than OOS or prestigious privates, or 2) They're attending the D3 school because it's more expensive but cheaper than Ivy-selective. Most just didnt want to go far from home.</p>
<p>Does that mean we're not smart? Far from it. Our valedictorian is attending the D3 school in our hometown because they have a good music program and he's very close to his family and wants to live here his whole life. </p>
<p>There are high schools with this distribution all over the country, and by no means are these students dumber or less intellectual than those attending Ivy league schools.</p>
<p>Do your research, show them schools that have what appeals to you, maybe even show them some graduate school statistis for schools that interest you. </p>
<p>You may even want to explore Brown, excellent writing! and this will maybe appease your parents that you are looking into Ivy.</p>
<p>Take a look at the Fulbright Scholars thread. Take average SAT scores, even. Look on the colleges' websites and their press releases for mentions of students and professors. This is not definitive, but it will show your mom that you CAN achieve a lot and be ivy-smart and schools that are not ivies, and even be happier if the school suits your interests.</p>
<p>Well, your mom is mostly correct - the Ivies do attract many of the top students. However, several non-Ivies are on par with Ivy League schools.</p>
<p>This selective list includes: Stanford, MIT, Duke, Chicago, Northwestern, Georgetown, and maybe a few other colleges - these schools are all non-Ivy league, but have students on par with those at the Ivy League. </p>
<p>This probably wasn't the answer you were looking for though lol.</p>
<p>What is important to stress your mom is that you will do better academically at a place where you are happy.</p>
<p>"Smartness" can't always be measured with grades and test scores. Tell her you are looking for a school with intellectual people, not just smart people.</p>
<p>Optimization - I'm pretty sure "smartness" and grades and test scores all have a pretty strong positive correlation. </p>
<p>You'll find intellectualism and smartness in many of the same places.</p>
<p>Yeah, but someone who is interested in art and creative writing may be looking for schools that are intellectual in those areas. Someone who loves art may or may not care about the 25/75 percentile of kids at an Ivy that score a 2250. They may care about the quality of portfolios or something. And if the person is applying to an art program, then they may not even have to submit SAT scores. </p>
<p>I agree you will find intellectualism and smartness in many of the same places, but it isn't definitive. Her mom thinks she won't find as-smart-kids anywhere else, which isn't true. I think she'll find lots of intellectuals in art at NYU, for instance.</p>
<p>Any new england liberal arts college will have essentially the same demographic of kids as an Ivy. Same with a school like Tufts. Show her the average SAT scores, the middle 50% range is almost the same.</p>
<p>Sorry I can't help to support your argument, because it's blatantly untrue. Sure, the Ivies have some of the brightest students, but so do many other colleges. So, if you're going to persuade your mom to go Ivy, why not the others? Why Ivies? I find it hard to believe that after researching colleges, a person's list has, miraculously, the eight Ivies on it (+ a few safeties).</p>
<p>I side with your mom on this one; there are other colleges you should look into, even ones that you don't think would be "intellectually stimulating."</p>
<p>kyledavid, I think you have it backwards - his mom is the one saying that Ivy students are better than the rest</p>
<p>And I tend to agree with his mom, as posted above (though I'd add some more schools along with the Ivies)</p>
<p>"I want to study creative writing, Russian, and art."</p>
<p>My advice is to go visit the Ivies as well as the other colleges that interest you. Do this during the school year so that you can meet students who go there, and so you can sit in on classes that interest you.</p>
<p>It seems that you are erroneously assuming that Ivies only are good for people who want to do scientific research, which isn't true.</p>
<p>It may be that after visiting Ivies, you still feel that they aren't for you, and that's OK. What's not a good idea is jumping to conclusions without taking the time to visit them.</p>
<p>Incidentally Toni Morrison teaches at Princeton, and Brown students can take classes at Rhode Island School of Design.</p>
<p>I'm a chick.</p>
<p>Yeah, kyledavid80 you have it backwards... what a scathing reply! It's cool though.</p>
<p>You all should know: I'm not opposed to attending an Ivy school because it's an Ivy school; Brown is tied for first place on my list right now, and I'm visiting Yale in a matter of days. I just want to make sure my mom knows that schools that are not the Ivy League can still be as-intellectually-stimulating places to learn...</p>
<p>Northstarmom: Yes, I know Ivies are not only good for people who want to do scientific research - but if I was opposed to the idea of the Ivies while really looking to do research, that wouldn't make much sense, because of the facilities, faculty, and ground-breaking activity I could find at an Ivy school. I want people to know that's not a factor.</p>
<p>Some of these comments are really helpful! Thanks everyone.</p>
<p>Oops, read wrong. Sorry!</p>
<p>russiasaurus, is your mom ParentOfIvyHope? lol</p>
<p>Lol thank god no.</p>
<p>BTW, don't get me wrong - I LOVE my mom and I would not say that she's hung up on the "prestige factor" - she just wants me to be with lots of smart kids and quality faculty.</p>
<p>sounds like my mom : </p>
<p>if you don't get into any school higher on teh US News rankings than UCLA, you're going to community college !! </p>
<p>i'm not kidding. she seriously said that.</p>
<p>Tell her that HYPSM(C) are generally consider the top 5/6 schools, and 3 of those aren't Ivy's.</p>
<p>Stanford, MIT, CalTech, Northwestern, Rice, Duke, UChicago, Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, Pomona, and a few others are just as 'good' as 'the Ivy's'.</p>
<p>And remind her of the difference between HYP and CPenn, there is a significant one.</p>
<p>Look up "public Ivies." Maybe that might help. =)</p>
<p>Also, bring up the fact that "lower" schools like Berkeley have ~99% of their student body in the top 10% of their high school class. Harvard "only" has 95%.</p>
<p>And point out that the University of Chicago has even more affiliated Nobel Laureates than Harvard.</p>
<p>(Ignore that damn Columbia. =p)</p>
<p>The average SAT score at Caltech is higher than Harvard's.</p>
<p><a href="http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=4214&profileId=6%5B/url%5D">http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=4214&profileId=6</a>
<a href="http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=1251&profileId=6%5B/url%5D">http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=1251&profileId=6</a></p>
<p>(I'm using Harvard for illustrative purposes only; the other Ivies fall even further behind it.)</p>
<p>'You all should know: I'm not opposed to attending an Ivy school because it's an Ivy school; Brown is tied for first place on my list right now, and I'm visiting Yale in a matter of days. I just want to make sure my mom knows that schools that are not the Ivy League can still be as-intellectually-stimulating places to learn.."</p>
<p>Instead of trying to win by arguing with your mom, ask if she'd accompany you on a school year visit to colleges --- Ivies as well as nonIvies. I agree with you that there are smart kids at both types of schools. Seeing is believing.</p>
<p>I thought the OP had stated that her mom wasn't simply holding just the Ivies as the top schools, but schools that are "Ivy selective," which includes a lot more schools, from top privates like MIT, Stanford, and Duke, to great LACs like Swarthmore and Amherst, among others.</p>
<p>And if this were the case, I would say that those schools all certainly will have a higher percentage of intelligence and intellectualism. Bright kids will concentrate themselves at the best schools, but that isn't to say that is the only place you can find them.</p>