I’m still wondering how people get on these mailing lists? Did your kids check the “colleges can send me info” box when taking psat, sat, or other standardized tests? Did they sign-up to receive info on web sites?
I’m just curious, as I’ve just finished college app adventure with our 2nd kid (no more apps for us!!) and I can count on one hand the number of mailings - no mountain.
But, just like all spam mail, parents should file them all in the circular file cabinet and - problem solved.
I think part of the problem with excessive disappointment in not getting into an Ivy or equivalent is the fact that some of the very best paying employers only recruit at HYPSMS - looking at you McKinsey/Bain etc.
My son is headed to Bain and there are plenty of “non ivy” kids in his internship class.
While back “in the day” some companies only recruited from a handful of schools, today no company can be so arbitrary.
The number of companies that recruit only from a few schools is extremely small and does not include MBB.
A while back I heard or read something about how lots of cocktail chatter starts off with the question, “So, what do you do?” This (the author posited) was a shorthand way of being able to peg people into their “appropriate” box/level in the the listener’s mind and seemed like a reduction of the speaker as nothing more than their profession. Thus, I rarely ask that question anymore (at least, not unless I’ve been asked first). Instead, I ask, “What do you like to do for fun?” to make it a more personal chat and to leave out potential socioeconomic/elitist judgments.
The same thing is true for students in high school. My initial question is usually, “Have you thought about what you want to do after high school?” and then depending on their answer, ask follow-up questions. I don’t think that college should be the expectation for all students. Nor do I want any student who is thinking of alternatives to college to be feeling on the defensive from the get-go of a conversation. I think that when people are approaching a life transition (graduating from school, getting married, having a baby, etc.), it is pretty natural to find that is a go-to conversation with others.
I understand this response, particularly if you happen to live in an environment where there is a great deal of focus on the Top X schools.
I would absolutely love, however, for people to say, I’m looking at National university #180, and #290, and liberal arts college #135, and regional college #16, and be proud and excited of whatever colleges they’re considering. (Note, I’m just using those rankings in place of college names…I really hope that nobody goes around stating the USNWR ranks of the colleges they’re applying to!) I think that helps to break down the social expectations that get built up in some settings in the U.S. and it leads to natural follow-up questions like, “How did you become interested in that university?” or “What do you like about that university?” It gets more universities known to others and the positive reasons why people consider them. And, assuming one’s kid is nice/respectful, it also creates that positive link to a university that’s not a Top X university.
Perhaps if people were prouder to talk about non-Top X schools then the grip and focus on the “elite” colleges would lessen.
PSAT was the culprit (I think).
I thought I had tried to explain this in a long post, but it’s gone. I’m referring how the multi-year, ethically ambiguous, data-driven media campaigns which attempt to manipulate young, impressionable students into falling in love with the schools, and the careful and implicit efforts to create the false impression that the college will equally love the student back. I’m also referring to the ever increasing levels of commitment these colleges expect from the students through demonstrating interest, following on social media, opening the emails and liking posts, participating on the various seminars, visiting the campus, researching and writing "why XU?” essays, etc, followed by the “if you really love me, prove it, or you may miss your chance!” proposition of ED, EDII, LOCI’s, etc. And all the while the colleges are committing nothing in return. In short, while the intensity of the marketing varies from school to school, the top schools (including Ivy’s) are cultivating a level of emotional commitment that they know will go unrequited for almost all the students. While the intentions of he schools may be understandable or even laudable, the impact on the kids and families seems somewhat predatory.
Regarding my use of the phrase “almost cultish,” I wasn’t comparing Tufts or Cornell to the Manson family. Rather, I was referring to
Hope this helps.
I think if varies by school and situation, and the Ivy’s may not be the worst offenders, but in my experience at least some of Ivy’s are engaged in multi-year, focused and personalized marketing efforts as described above. And a number of Ivy’s offer ED or (to a lesser extend) SCEA, thus looking for a potentially unrequited level of commitment from the students. And while most may claim they aren’t looking at “demonstrated interest,” their application essay prompts suggest otherwise. I understand their goals, and don’t believe they are intending to unfairly manipulate students, but oftentimes that’s the outcome nonetheless.
Also with regard to the Ivy’s and other top schools, they may not have to work as hard to get foster the level of emotional commitment to which I refer. Their institutional reputations, parents, peers, and popular culture does their marketing for them, thus the fanatical levels of devotion to these schools among families and potential applicants. It is a potentially unhealthy atmosphere, and very hard on some kids.
While you and your kids my be sophisticated enough to see through this stuff, not everyone is, thus the constant clamoring by families to position themselves and their children to attend these institutions, whether whether or not it is feasible or even makes sense.
I think the argument that parents and kids should do their research and be able to see through the marketing presumes that everyone has the time, bandwidth and knowledge to do so.
But there are plenty of parents that don’t know much about colleges let alone their marketing practices. They are working two jobs and trying to make ends meet. They haven’t been to college but their daughter Susie is at the top of her class and wants to be the first in the family to go. Now she’s getting glossy mailers from Ivies with her name on them! And UChicago sent a shirt and included a booklet that showed how someone like her would thrive there. Wow, these big name colleges want her!
Sure, one can say “buyer beware” - and while that’s generally good advice it’s not something that comes to a lot of people’s minds when they think of these elite colleges. They are often viewed as benevolent and revered institutions of higher learning. The kids fall in love with these institutions and imagine they are going there - but of course many of them won’t. The fall is quite dramatic and often hard to handle.
I’m not saying it’s all the college’s fault. There are definitely many factors at play. But I don’t think we can simply absolve them of any responsibility regarding how they lead on kids.
I have an honest question. Can you give some concrete examples of these campaigns?
To me it would be better to provide more education to people about the chances, other opportunities, etc. Change the rules for colleges and they will find other ways to push the envelope, side step them, etc.
Added benefit is more people would be able to use the same approach with any of a number of marketing campaigns that will come their way during their lifetimes. Its not like colleges have a monopoly in sending what appears to be “personalized” messages. Having your name on something means nothing in terms of personalization. You can use fonts that look like handwriting so you are not getting a handwritten letter. Teach people to be able to evaluate for themselves claims that are made by various entities/businesses looking for your attention/money. Makes it much harder to actually succeed with those approaches (such that rule changes aren’t needed).
And in the end even if you put all the blame on colleges (or most of it or a lot of it or whatever), until the rules are changed, the best hope is to educate people. Its what I would expect people would do with families/friends they know with smart kids entering high school/middle school.
I would think most families with relatively high stats kids could give plenty of examples (some have in this thread and others), especially if they are in a target demographic and opted to allow College Board to sell their information to colleges. Our family opted out of allowing College Board to sell our information, yet we were still inundated with marketing from a number top colleges (including Ivy’s) and received posters, stickers, banners, trinkets, glossy foldout maps, books, etc. Some schools would even send multiple mailings in the same week. All unsolicited.
Here is link to a thesis from an MIT student addressing the role of “surveillance capitalism” and predatory practices in college admissions. She provides a number of examples from her own experiences, including screenshots of her inbox, and counts of mailings. https://cms.mit.edu/cashing-in-on-student-data-standardized-testing-and-predatory-college-marketing-n-the-united-states/
Here is a link generally discussing marketing efforts by colleges, which discusses a number of trends, including the hiring of marketers from top corporations (such as Purdue’s top marketer, who sued t one top market for a top pharmaceutical company.) https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/colleges-marketing-student-recruitment/2021/09/30/b6ddd246-2166-11ec-8200-5e3fd4c49f5e_story.html
It may be that I am more immune than most when it comes to marketing material. However, for those who feel overly influenced by such material may I suggest the following approach:
…that should do it.
I guess I am too worn out by the cultish devotion and predatory behavior (no examples given, by the way) to continue the argument. You win.
However- I’d like to make a modest suggestion. The folks who argue that the Ivy League colleges prey on young, impressionable people who waste their entire teenage years doing EC’s, cramming for tests, walking the gauntlet, etc.-- (and you all realize I am not in this group)- please, for the good of society- volunteer for an organization that helps first Gen, the incarcerated, new immigrants, etc. get a college education. Just do it.
First, because you may come to realize that the “problems” you are trying to solve with a staggered Ivy admit day, more transparency, etc. resonate with a tiny, tiny portion of the population. Privilege indeed.
Second, because although I don’t agree with much of what you post, you are all clearly passionate about the benefits of education- which I agree with wholeheartedly. And you would all be fantastic advocates for people who face substantial obstacles (bigger than not being named president of the robotics team, which for sure means you won’t get into Stanford).
Third, because I happen to agree that Higher Ed is “broken”- I just believe it’s broken from the other end of what some of you care passionately about. It’s broken for the kids who waste their entire Pell getting a Bachelor’s in Court Reporting or Travel and Tourism-- only to realize that they are “launching” into fields that don’t require a college degree. The Pell is gone- and there’s often debt. Look at the stats on predatory practices among for-profit colleges… Higher Ed is broken for people who take the bus to community college after work- and then the city decides to stop bus service at 8 pm because ridership is low in the evenings- which means the hard-working CC students can GET to class- they just can’t get home afterwards.
You get my point. Broken at the bottom, hardly broken at the top. We can fix this. None of us can alter the dynamics of elite admissions right now-- at least until the current demographics shift-- but each of us can alter the dynamics of first Gen, immigrant, etc. education.
There are great organizations which provides interview coaching, resume editing, job skills to women getting out of prison. The stories are tragic- mainly because the drug dealer (who makes millions) can afford bail and a great lawyer, but the woman standing on the street corner who was the courier cannot. Or was the victim of domestic violence- and she finally fought back. or whatever…
The stories are tragic but the ending doesn’t need to be- these women need to learn how to get and keep a job.
Enough about the Ivy League!
@mtmind,the MIT thesis is link is broken (I’m getting a “Page 404 Not Found” error). Are you able to see if there’s a problem?
TIA
ETA: I found it by searching the MIT CMS search bar for “standardized testing”.
One way to minimize disappointment is to establish thresholds for entry, which most CC users dislike. Most public school kids in Texas are not disappointed by a rejection from UT; they understand well before junior year that if not in the top 6%, there is little reason to apply, and their rank is determined quarterly. As noted above, McGill publishes their thresholds for admittance; applicants know where they stand before the app is mailed. Similarly, Oxford has grade minimums and administers its own test. The statistics on test results and admission are clear and public, even if an interview is also required.
Here, we insist there is no threshold, few are told class rank, and everyone has a chance, so everyone applies everywhere. We just delay disappointment for many to senior year; other systems calibrate student expectations earlier.
Totally agree!
@blossom
I agree 100%!!!
Colleges are a business and they will market themselves. Many students literally do not get ANY materials from Ivies at all and many don’t believe that Ivies market themselves more than any other college.
It’s “easy” to attack the colleges and put blame on them. What is harder is looking at what one can actually do in their own personal bubble. And as blossom said, what we can do within our own families and communities is going to have so much more of an impact than fighting some elitest complaint that Ivies “aren’t clear enough” or “send too many mailers.”
If people really want to make a difference in improving the mental health and reducing the disappointment of not getting into an Ivy, start with your own friends and family. If you see a child who has their sights on an T20 and T20 only, talk to them. Ensure they have the correct data and information. Try to reach out and find out why this is their goal and help them find some true safeties they would be happy at. If you aren’t able to reach out to the child, reach out to the legal guardian or parent.
Look at your local school’s curriculum. Do they encourage trades? Do they honor kids who enter into the military or workforce as much as they do those who go to college? Consider becoming active in your kid’s PTO or attend school board meetings.
Suicide in teens is rising at alarming rates. We need to make our impact at the bottom and then work our way to the top. If we as parents, family, or friends can’t emotionally support our kids, how do we expect college admission offices to care more than we do?