Agreed!
This is where it’s incumbent upon adults (parents, teachers, counselors, etc) to lay it all out. Yes, apply to single-digit acceptance % schools, but KNOW that chances are you will be rejected.
Most of these kids that have their hearts set on the elite school would earn significant scholarships (maybe even a free ride) at the overwhelming majority of universities with $$$ left over to attend grad school, perhaps at that elite school that they just missed out on as an undergrad.
I believe that sometimes we confuse academic achievement with emotional intelligence. I think it’s dangerous to assume that a 17-yr old will automatically “get it” re the very real chance of application rejection.
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I also think many kids and parents looks at acceptance rates and the process inaccurately, which fuels expectations that are often unrealized and leads to disappointment. The ones I hear most frequently are:
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Not understanding the strength of the applicant pool. The reality is you have a sub 5% likelihood of acceptance within a pool of candidates of which the vast majority are in the top 5% of students in their local communities. Students hear the acceptance rate and think they are in the top echelons locally without contextualizing just how much higher the bar is.
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Not understanding that these applications are not entirely independent of one another. I have had parents suggest that with a 5% acceptance rate applying to 20 schools should yield at least one admit. Reality is that often students that are successful at one school gain multiple acceptances while kids often get entirely shut out. The elite schools are unique from one another but the quality of the applications drives results more then the volume of applications submitted.
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Not understanding that these schools have a “lane” for every background but a varying number of spots that changes over time. For some lanes the acceptance rate can be higher or lower than the aggregate acceptance rate as the number of spots and the size of applicant pool ebb and flow. With that said for every kid that is disappointed with their result and blames their demographic the reality is there is likely a kid fitting that same demographic that somehow beat them out.
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We as parents and prone to a mind set of “if not my kid then who”. The vast majority of parents applying to elite schools don’t just think of their kid as impressive or top. Instead we think of them as the best (whatever that means). You can highlight all of the stats, trends and realities you want but as parents we are predisposed to think my kid has always been in the top 5% so if rejected the system has to be rigged.
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Parents assume holistic review looks past hard stats and numbers. Reality is that the holistic aspect only kicks in once the kids academic abilities are determined to indicate the ability to thrive. Holistic review serves to distinguish amongst the best not to propel the undeserving into consideration.
We have gone round and round in an attempt to attribute blame for the “crushing” disappointment of rejection. I will stipulate society, schools, parents, and kids all contribute to a false sense of expectation and entitlement but I remain convinced that failure and or disappointment are the building blocks for resilience and eventual success whether disclosed on Ivy day or over a week.
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Usually, one does marketing because it supports one brand.
If you decide that their reason for having a joint decision date must be brand marketing, then the answer to “why” is THAT assertion!?
Is it just me, or has this turned into a circular argument about 300 posts ago?
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I think most posters long ago moved past the specific discussion of the timing and existence of “Ivy Day” to a slightly more nuanced conversation regarding the emotional and psychological toll related to (supposedly) high stakes admissions, generally.
It seems most here have concluded that the process isn’t emotionally damaging. Or, if it is, then this builds character and/or is solely caused by poor parenting and/or unreasonable expectations.
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I appreciate all you say except the alleged circularity. My very simple point is that this benefits the schools, not the students. At the very least, there is the “stated reason”, mentioned some 316 posts ago, which actually jointly limits the time students have to accept an Ivy League school offer, and then another reason (i.e., marketing), which seems more credible.
And that’s IMHO for avoidance of doubt or further circularity challenges!
I’d say the “impact” of any rejection is very personal. Some will cope with certain rejections better than others - and for some, certain rejections will be literally unbearable.
There is no black or white answer!
Besides the personal makeup and coping skills, there certainly is also the perceived “weight” to a decision, which controls how much ability to cope a specific rejection will demand of a person. The more impressionable the person, especially when still young, the more that person’s environment (family, friends, peers,…) will affect the perceived weight.
Consequently - it’s neither absolutely right nor absolutely wrong to assign responsibility to parents, the high school, the media (incl. College Confidential), the individual,… At the end is a completely variable mix of personal and environmental factors.
The only absolutely wrong answer is that any one answer is absolutely right.
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And we can only influence a very few of those factors, so is incumbent on parents to do what they can…
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While every person reacts somewhat differently to disappointment and rejection, I think this thread is drastically underplaying/underestimating the cultural expectations and pressures that some of these kids are under. And no matter how many times it is explained on CC, it is impossible for family, friends, parents, peers, or sometimes even the students to understand or accept that a kid with a 1570+ SAT score, a 4.0uw gpa, excellent rigor and EC’s, etc. could be rejected not only by all their reaches, but by their targets as well. And when many kids from the same friend group and school have better luck with equal or lower credentials, it makes it even harder for everyone to comprehend.
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I do think it’s difficult, however, to compare to peers wiith “equal or lower credentials”. Often, people do not exactly know what ECs the peers actually did, since the way to stand out is often by not doing things that people already know about (ie the standard cookie-cutter ECs at schools). Moreover, they do not know how their peers framed their life story in a compelling narrative. At the end of the day, high stats/rigor is not unique enough to be admitted these days…
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I haven’t interpreted anyone to be minimizing the very real feelings of disappointment experienced by some students. It totally stinks.
I am sure it makes students question a lot of things they had previously viewed as sacrosanct and question whether or not life is fair.
Unfortunately however what they had previously thought, was in reality not accurate and life sometimes is not fair.
I am not minimizing their feelings just highlighting that these sorts of realizations are inevitable and unavoidable. Given that ultimately the vast majority of kids wind up landing on their feet and have other academic options, I just don’t see admission rejections being as meaningful as others suggest.
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Yes, kids often land on their feet after all sorts negative experiences, including after harmful and abusive relationships. But I don’t think that their resilience makes those awful experiences somehow less “meaningful” or less important to address. And even if the application process eventually works out in the end for most, the relationship between the kids, on the one hand, and the schools/process, on the other, seems almost predatory. So much is asked emotionally and intellectually of these kids, and so little is offered in return. The requested level of devotion is almost cultish.
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I believe that private colleges should be allowed to do whatever they want in terms of admissions, subject to the process passing legal muster. If a private college wants to use holistic admissions, fine by me.
The issue I have is with public colleges using holistic admissions, demonstrated interest, and yield management which collectively make admissions to some public colleges highly unpredictable as well.
I think that a good model for public colleges is the one used by McGill, which is comparable in educational quality to many of the best US public colleges. The last time I checked, McGill admitted using grades and scores only, and did not consider activities or recommendations. They also used to provide typical cutoffs for admission. Students much stronger knew that admission was guaranteed, and students much weaker knew they had no chance. This level of predictability allowed it to be a safety for my children.
The one improvement I would suggest to the McGill model is an admissions bump based upon low SES.
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I hope you are using hyperbole to make a point- and not because you actually think the relationship is predatory, OR that so much is being asked emotionally and intellectually with so little offered in return. Cultish?
Either you know some REALLY messed up people (which could be true- this is America after all and we seem to specialize in crazies) or you are puling our legs.
Your experience would appear to be an EXTREME outlier in the college admissions process- and one of my friends here with better statistical training than I can characterize how to handle extreme outliers. Or of course- my own experience is the one which is completely atypical (with about a dozen nieces, nephews, and another few dozen cousins in their teens and early twenties, plus the teams I manage professionally, many new grads, etc.)
I know that college admissions is rough in California- god forbid a kid ends up at Merced which I take it is like giving up on life at age 18. And with so many impacted majors at the “good” UC’s- I get that this freaks people out. And I know that UT has Texans in a knot. But jeez- there are high school kids in St. Louis, Philadelphia, Cincinnati, Tulsa, Worcester, Bangor, Albany, Chicago, Nashville-- we’re talking tens of thousands of kids here- and none of them have to join a cult to apply to and get admitted to college.
What exactly is predatory here? You do understand that this entire process is voluntary, right? Nobody comes to your house and demands that you apply to Dartmouth or Tufts… Predatory? Yikes.
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After you’ve come up with an application strategy, the only thing you can control is how you handle the outcome.
As a friend said when something truly dreadful and life-changing happened, the decision was “bitter or better”. As in, it was up to them to decide how they would be as a result.
I know, I know. Easier said than done. But still worth the effort.
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“Yikes” is right.
To try to address some of your comments:
- The people to whom I refer aren’t “REALLY messed up” nor are they “crazies.”
- I’m not “pulling your leg.”
- I am not talking about “extreme outliers.”
- Regarding your caricatures about California applicants (Merced, "giving up on life at 18, “‘good’ UCs,”) they have nothing to do with my comments.
- I didn’t write that anyone had to literally "join a cult to apply to and get admitted to college.” I said aspects of the process seem to me to be “almost cultish.” I stand by that.
- Yes, I do understand that the entire process is voluntary, and that Tufts won’t come to my door (in person at least.)
After threshing off the chaff, it seems like perhaps you meant to politely ask me what aspects of the process “seem almost predatory?” Did I get that right? Because I’d be glad to discuss it provided we can leave out the snark and insults.
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While people tend to attribute a varying degree of benefit to attending elites, there seems to be near universal agreement that ultimately it is the quality and assertiveness of the individual student that determines long term outcomes. That being the case how is it either abusive or harmful if ultimately the “real” impact of rejection is lost in the mix as these students thrive elsewhere.
More specifically I don’t understand what part of the application process is “almost predatory” and “awful”. The fees can often be waived, the common app makes it convenient, the incremental essays while cumbersome are a modest amount of work given the academic aspirations.
We can debate the degree to which students grasp exactly how long the odds are but they all know the odds are long. No one is so naive to think Harvard is an easy admit and if there is a kid out their living in a bubble who feels entitled to a spot they are probably well served to have that expectation shattered.
The kids want to take their best shot for very competitive opportunities. The price of that opportunity is nothing more than a fee, a checked box on a common app, potentially a few essays and then the patience to wait and the maturity to accept the answer. Unfortunately for many that answer is disappointing but setting aspirations high requires an expectation and acceptance of disappointment.
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Might I remind members of the forum rules: “Our forum is expected to be a friendly and welcoming place, and one in which members can post without their motives, intelligence, or other personal characteristics being questioned by others."
and
“College Confidential forums exist to discuss college admission and other topics of interest. It is not a place for contentious debate. If you find yourself repeating talking points, it might be time to step away and do something else… If a thread starts to get heated, it might be closed or heavily moderated.”
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/guidelines
As the recent posts have been dominated by a handful of users, I have put the thread on slow mode until morning. Since I am the second moderator to need to put the thread on slow mode, the wait time has been extended. My hope is this will allow other users to join the conversation and prompt the more exuberant users to be strategic in postings.
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It’s not the Ivies that are engaging in the “predatory” behaviors mentioned upthread with targeted mailings, demonstrating interest, etc…so I’m not sure what that has to do with “Ivy Day.”
Are some schools very aggressive with their marketing? Absolutely! I can’t tell you how much stuff from U of Chicago went into our trash. It was constant. Are they playing a game to increase applications to make their acceptance rate look better? Probably. That said, all it takes is a minute of googling to see that it’s marketing pure and simple and says nothing about a student’s chances of admission.
After a house purchase, college can be the single biggest expense for families. I don’t think it’s too much to ask child and parent to do a little research into the process.
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Reasonable expected due diligence doesn’t absolve the institutions.
Take a minute and Google: “Subprime Mortgage 2008”
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