<p>jonri: I just saw your post. I agree with you. I’m not sure why so few others do–maybe they’re busy networking for their kids with NMD behind the scenes. :)</p>
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<p>Very well and wisely said. </p>
<p>I would only add that in my judgment, while all the Ivies are terrific schools, they are not the only terrific schools, and not necessarily the “best of the best.” Brown, for example, is an excellent school, one of my favorites—and the only Ivy my D likes well enough to apply to. But it is revealing, I think, that Brown gets nearly twice as many applications as the University of Chicago, a school that by any objective measure is competitive with the best of the Ivies and arguably better than several of them, including Brown in my judgment. Now other factors may also be at play: vastly different school cultures, locational advantages, and so on. But one hugely important difference is that Brown has that Ivy League cachet while Chicago doesn’t. Its popularity is based on its prestige, which in turn is based partly on its popularity, and so on in a ceaseless self-reinforcing cycle. I think parents would do well by their children to help them avoid that prestige trap, helping them to identify excellent educational alternatives (like Chicago, or top LACs beyond AWS) where the odds against their admission are not quite so long. If the parents create or actively feed an expectation that Junior will get into an Ivy—and many do, though I’m not accusing anyone here—the disappointment will only be more bitter if it doesn’t happen.</p>
<p>“My personal opinion is, most NE’ers stay in NE not necessarily because of NE elitism, but because most don’t have the compelling need to look elsewhere given how much is available right in our backyard.”</p>
<p>I agree with you on that hyeonlee–I think that most students have a pretty short radius from home in mind when they look at colleges. I think the adventurous, going 3000 miles cross country types are much rarer. My D looked at schools like Uof C (which she really loved) and Stanford, but ultimately didn’t want to venture that far away from home since she had so many viable options here from NY to Boston. It wasn’t elitism; it was practicality.</p>
<p>Most students across the country attend college within 250 miles of their home. Most probably also go to a public university in their own state. This isn’t just a Northeastern phenomenon. It’s only on CC where you see lots of people talking about planning to attend some private college across the country or abroad.</p>
<p>The folks that commented on geography and distance to a college are on to something. We had a strong preference for some place within a day’s drive. Did not work out that way. Other than no more tuition bills, the best part about my daughter’s graduation was no longer needing to worry about flights home for Thanksgiving (the absolute worst to book for), Christmas and spring breaks, and getting her to/from at the beginning and end of the year. We drove out, two long days on the road each way. </p>
<p>As others have suggested, when you live in the Boston area, don’t want to go to school in Boston and want something bigger than a LAC, the choices within a day’s drive get pretty limited. Outside the ivies, you have mediocre state U, Hopkins, Rochester, McGill, CMU, and maybe a few others. </p>
<p>So please, some of the northeast “provincialism” may have a pragmatic basis.</p>
<p>idad:#177
DD school is in California and students aspire for HMSPY over any other school in the country and not for any wrong reasons. (These 5 are not part of any League).</p>
<p>Based on almost 10 years of school matriculation, seldom any student have choosen a school outside of 5 if accepted into 1 of these. Exception is merit scholarship or direct MD at Caltech</p>
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<p>I guess my D must be the rare type, then. She much prefers small LACs but won’t even consider Macalester, about a 5-minute drive from our house; Carlton, about 45 minutes away; or Grinnell, about 4 hours from here by car. Her top choices are all in the Northeast or California. Why? Well, for one thing she wants NOT to be too tied to the old apron strings, or too much in the habit of running home on weekends. The places she wants to go are all 2-4 hours flight time away (including plane changes for some); granted, it’ll be more expensive to come home and consequently we’ll see her less frequently, but travel time per se is not an issue. Would we prefer her to be closer? Certainly. Is that a critical part of her college education, or of the next stage of her development? I don’t think so. Our wanting her to be closer is our issue, not hers; and as her parents we do not want to let that influence her decision as to where to go to college any more than she wants to make it a factor. Which is not very much. Ouch, I guess, but on the other hand I’m proud of her for being clear about what she wants, and for being that bold fledgling to fully take the plunge and see how well her own wings work (in the nurturing embrace of a small LAC, which hopefully softens the landing).</p>
<p>Second, she affirmatively sees value in spending time in and getting to know other parts of the country. Now in a sense my D is a bit of a “ringer” here because we lived in the Northeast for many years and in California more briefly, though never in the particular parts of those regions where she’s considering schools. I think she has a point there, too. Any good college or university is going to be broadening in many ways, but other things equal, I think it will be more broadening to go “away” to school rather than staying in our own back yard. I say this with no intention to criticize others who make the opposite choice, but only to point out that the answer to hyeonjlee’s question is not so obvious as he seems to think. Many of us have perfectly fine options in our own backyards, and personal preferences to be geographically close to our children. That doesn’t necessarily answer the question as to where they should go to school, and many people’s children make a different choice.</p>
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<p>I never said “elitism.” I said “parochialism,” as in “regional chauvinism.” Many Northeasterners mistakenly conflate the two because they automatically assume their region is “elite,” but in my view that’s just one more manifestation of their parochialism 
(Let me hasten to add that I say this all in good fun as a “reformed” Northeasterner myself, having spent more of my adult life in the Northeast than in any other region).</p>
<p>POIH–D’s friend from SoCal came east for school and regrets it. She misses home, weather and associated outdoor activities. She wants to transfer home to Pomona from Harvard.</p>
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<p>Because it’s a wide, wide world out there, and if we’re fortunate enough to have the funds such that transportation isn’t an issue, of course I’d rather they explore some other area than our own backyard. Good grief, the very negative of the top 20 school where my kids are a double legacy is that it’s in our backyard.</p>
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<p>What is unsophisticated is that they defined “the best” solely in terms of those 5 schools, POIH. It’s like the kind of people who believe that there are real, meaningful differences in USNWR rankings that are 1,2,3,4,5 points apart. </p>
<p>One of the things that amazes me with my own kids’ college search is that there are SO many opportunities at SO many schools. It would be one thing if indeed, HYPSM were the only schools that had research labs, or study-abroad arrangements, or what-have-you. But there is so much, such an embarrassment of riches in so many different places.</p>
<p>As someone who lived and worked overseas, and traveled to close to 50 countries with the kids (most of the countries off the beaten track in remote regions in the world): I would like to expose the kids to wonder and diversity of the world they live in. I am already encouraging S1 to have a semester of a whole academic year abroad: hopefully NOT in Europe: that’s not far enough both geographically and culturally. I am also encouraging the kids (and am willing to finance it) for a summer langue immersion courses over seas. But when there are so many good options right near by, I don’t feel that there is a compelling need to send a 17-18 year olds 3000 miles away for school.</p>
<p>Looking back a year ago, after S1 got EA acceptance from Chicago, we as a family basically said “let’s not even bother with Stanford application”. We all know what an amazing institution Stanford is supposed to be, but whatever delta in terms of “prestige and opportunity” was simply not worth the added mileage further from Chicago from where we are. U Chicago in our mind stood out and made the distance worth it. If it had not, and it had been rather one of the regular top 20 schools, we would not have bothered with that either. </p>
<p>As for S2, who will be looking at top 30-60 type schools, again, we are basically writing off schools that are far away. For S2, the distance will be EVEN shorter. For the kinds of schools he will be looking at, whatever added prestige and opportunity will simply not be worth a thousand mile distance given how much is available within 250 miles. Simple as that. But, he in all likelihood will have a semester or a whole year abroad, and summers overseas with relatives in several continents.</p>
<p>Yes, we are influenced by the distance. It’s party selfish on our part, and in part because there is really no compelling reason given how many outstanding options are available right here. </p>
<p>That said, if I were living in Wyoming, I would send my kids thousands miles away for school: no doubt about it. So, it’s really a matter of balance: pros and cons, benefits and cost kind of equation.</p>
<p>This all just reminds me that I once worked for a man who told me that I didn’t go to a good college. When I asked him why he said that he responded that it wasn’t good because he had never heard of it. He was an idiot, so I didn’t take offense.</p>
<p>I think the bigger question is, though - where did these people get so unsophisticated that they really think that the “only” way to success (whether financial or otherwise) is through just a handful of top universities? I mean, it’s funny - a lot of these people work on Wall Street, or they work advising companies in certain areas, or whatever – do they not stop to think that a lot of these companies are headquartered other than in NYC, or that they were started / are run by people who didn’t necessarily attend HYPSM themselves? What upper middle class person <em>doesn’t</em> know other upper middle class people who may not have attended HYPSM? I get it if they are new to the country, but if they aren’t, then they really have no excuse for thinking that way.</p>
<p>So, bclintonk, the anti-NE bias is a direct result of our NE regional chauvinism then in your view. It’s our own fault that “everyone” else loathes us?</p>
<p>So when I see “I hate NY” bumper stickers in LA, or my HS friend moves to VA and is outright told no one will date her seriously because she’s not a So Baptist, or another friend is robbed in FLA and is tossed in jail for vagrancy because she has no id to prove who she is but she does have a NJ license plate–these are mere regional quirks born of disgust with the NE’s attitudes and practices and we deserve what we get? We reap what we sow? And, all of this can be paralled to a preference for the ivy league? Well, that is enlightening…I never realized how awful I was before.</p>
<p>My D intends to go to Africa for study abroad and has traveled extensively around this country, and abroad, as have I. There is nothing parochial about her, nor anything rude or elitist. I have driven cross country twice (northern route and southern route) and stayed in many places off the beaten path. In some places I was well-received and others not so much. Sometimes, I had trouble finding food that I could eat in other places, since I’m a vegetarian with a gluten allergy. I have traveled extensively and repeatedly for business to Denver, Chicago, Houston/Dallas and Atlanta just to name a few cities. All nice places–and NOT said with a wink–but just not for me. My D and I love the theater and the ballet and have seen hundreds upon hundreds of productions and have the playbill collection to prove it–this is just not possible to do to this extent in most other places. And to us no other city rivals NY in many other ways, as well. This is not to say this is an absolute truth–this is merely our truth. I have personally never been anything but polite when I’ve traveled even when I’ve been confronted with animosity so your slightly (wink, wink) snide remark isn’t much appreciated. It is an unfair generalization, and equally unfair to judge why other people’s children have a preference for any particular school. Not everyone who goes ivy is an elitist lemming. </p>
<p>And, there is nothing wrong with loving your home–wherever that may be. Most people of our generation have parents or at least grandparents that came from other lands. Don’t we still hold some of their traditions close? My own mother still speaks in her native tongue and talks about her birthplace like it was yesterday that she lived there instead of 60 years ago. Some people like and prefer the familiar. Some people like to get as far away from home as possible. I think your notion of regional chauvinism has little to do with that. I think it is a deeply personal choice.</p>
<p>I would never say to anyone “how could you live in that podunk town and go to that crappy school” and in return I would expect the same courtesy–I do not wish for anyone to say to me or my D “ugh, you’re from NY and you go to Harvard!” It’s just bad manners to say those things and just plain ignorant to think them.</p>
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<p>Yes, considering I very recently parachuted down into it from the East coast.</p>
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<p>I agree. I do miss the excitement- mostly the crowds and the subway (not winking either). </p>
<p>But things are not as primitive out here as you think. My D sings classical voice and we were very worried about how we would be able to find a good replacement for her NYC based voice teacher. Happily, the teacher we found here is far, far better. She is awesome. Now, I’m worried about whether she will be able to find someone quite as good when she goes back to the East coast for college.</p>
<p>The middle of the country is far more progressive and cosmopolitan than the folks on the coasts realize. I think coastal perceptions are about 20-30 years behind. Come visit us, and stay a while.</p>
<p>Boy, I sure didn’t suffer from any northeast elitism. I grew up there, but being born in Virginia must have defined me more, because I couldn’t get out fast enough. I’m sure there is SOME salary I could be paid that would get me back there, but right now I can’t imagine what it would have to be. We all have our individual preferences, but I have a little trouble even with the frequent visits I make to the northeast. It’s just me. I know I am in the minority (well, perhaps a lot of the southerners feel the same way). My son has been there in school for 6 years (boarding and college) and has grown to appreciate the city in which he lives, but was bound and determined to get out of the northeast after college, and he has managed to set that up for himself.<br>
My daughter dug in her heels and said she wouldn’t go to college in her home state of Texas. We looked all over, and the best fit for her was…Rice! She had an amazing college experience there and has a lot of Texas pride.</p>
<p>Congratulations, NMD. You have every reason to be proud of your daughter.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl:#193</p>
<p>HMSPY are good universities and most of the students who ended up attending these universities will be greatly benefited.</p>
<p>No one is saying that you are doomed if you don’t get into one of these. Just don’t say these are not great universities to go to.</p>
<p>Just because I don’t live in NYC it doesn’t make it a dull place.
NYC is the most happening place on the earth, I’m neither a New Yorker nor lived there ever but still love to visit and spend time there as it is the most happening place.</p>
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<p>This is OT, but I’m glad you were able to work out that issue. I take it she found a mutually acceptable destination?</p>
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<p>I think most kids know that there isn’t a difference educationally between Harvard and University of Chicago. In fact, University of Chicago arguably has the reputation of being the more rigorous of the two. The reason why some people describe U. of C. as an “ok choice” is solely due to the fact that it is less selective. </p>
<p>Kids and sometimes their parents use admission as an indication of how well they have done in high school–like a grade. The kids who would be disappointed by ivy rejection already know they can become a successful professional regardless of where they go. </p>
<p>Speaking mechanistically, I think what happens with smart kids is they start off with genuine academic interest, this moves to a general ambition to realize their talent, and then in high school some kids start to define the realization (and recognition) of their talents as getting into a certain school. In other words, instead of saying what type of skill should I develop by age 18 such that I look like I am on my way to becoming a successful mathematician, they might instead define it by saying “what would a math major at Harvard look like at age 18.” You could make the same mistake later in life by saying “how outstanding do I have to be as a scientist to become a Nobel Laureate” rather than “how outstanding to I have to be as a scientist to find the cure for cancer.” In theory, these goals should intersect but they don’t always do so in practice.</p>
<p>And then, even if it appears that schools haven’t taken students according to criteria that make sense to the student (perhaps even when looking only at one’s major,) there is the notion that universities are like the first customer in your career. If you’re an architect and your first customer demands a house that is pink and fluffy (saw this on the Brady Bunch!), then you have to deliver even if you think it is a ridiculous request. That’s part of why students ask “what does university XYZ want me to do during the summer of my junior year” and related questions. </p>
<p>Finally, extremely high achievers don’t always have the healthiest world view. However, I don’t think it is helpful or even warranted for armchair quarterbacks to lambaste those who have accomplished much more than they have. </p>
<p>If I was to offer advice to a parent of a kid who appears to have the drive and potential to reach the pinnacle of their field, I would tell them that they should define their long-term goal carefully. If they are a director, they should make it their goal to make a picture as good as Alfred Hitchcock instead of saying that they want to win the Academy Award for Best Director. (Incidentally, Hitchcock never won this award.) In the short term, either goal would motivate someone to develop the same skills. However, defining it the first way can save you some disappointment, or at least if you fail in your goal, it will be due to some real failure as opposed to the arbitrary or wrongheaded decision of some award panel. </p>
<p>The more talented you are and the harder you work, the more you will get a sense for what goes into success. You may reach a point where you know more about it than the people evaluating your work. I can think of projects in science which couldn’t get funded for decades because they contradicted some dogma that was unassailable at the time, projects that resulted in the Nobel Prize later. Or you may have a unique way of approaching something that people don’t understand at the time, an approach which will separate you from everybody else and make you the most successful in the long run. For example, Arnold Schwarzenegger didn’t fit a cookie-cutter formula even for an action hero especially with his odd name and his poor english. Gene Hackman and Dustin Hoffman were both the oddballs and outcasts in their acting classes. Don’t whitewash yourself too much to fit an ideal, because your own unique skills and abilities may re-define what the ideal is. And don’t feel that you have to convince everyone that you are right, because you will never be able to do that until years later when it pans out. </p>
<p>To sum up, I don’t think it is necessarily due to lack of sophistication that kids may get upset by ivy decisions, but rather a lack of confidence in the absolute vs. the relative. In other words, a lack of confidence that the value of something is measured on an absolute scale rather than relative to what other people think.</p>