The experience of an Ivy reject

Parent Cafe
501

<p>PG:</p>

<p>How do you know that all the parents whose children aspire to NE top schools have the means to fork $500 several times a year? How do you know that only they live in expensive suburbs, pay for private tutors, college counselors, etc…, etc…? Talk about stereotyping!
The reason I played host to some of my S’s roommates is that they could not afford to go home so often. In fact, some could not even go home during the Xmas break and went to visit friends whose homes were in the NE and could be reached by bus. They then came back to the dorms as soon as these re-opened.</p>

<p>If you live in an area that has some excellent schools but these are quite few, it is more logical to look both in your area and outside of it. But the Northeast is crawling with schools ranging from community colleges, state universities, LACs and research universities, and some of these can be quite affordable for families of limited means (think Harvard). For a lot of students from this region, going 2-3 hours away to college provides a good enough “different” experience. If my kid had decided to go to Williams, it would have given him more of a culture shock than attending Chicago. And it would not have cost as much for transportation.</p>

502

<p>Northwestern also has a very good performance based school of Music. UofC has a music major that is theory focused. NU has an excellent Journalism school (Medill).</p>

<p>As I said before, NU and UofC are both excellent, well resourced schools. Each has its strengths. Either can hold its own against competition from anywhere else in the country. Each can hold its own against the other, but why view it that way? They offer different experiences for different things.</p>

503

<p>I think pizzagirl is talking about posters like the OP, who are in HIGH school districts/private high schools that are in an “Ivy bubble,” not EVERY person who goes to an elite private. The fact that it would have been construed as some kind of disappointment for OP’s D to go to U of Chicago instead of an Ivy suggests an extremely well off population of students. Even at my upper middle class public HS, which sends 10s of kids to Ivies and many more to places like U of Chicago, there would be NO such attitude, suggesting that OP wasn’t just well off, but really really well off. For these people, I truly feel a plane ticket isn’t going to be the make or break factor.</p>

<p>Really, it shouldn’t be for anyone who is paying full freight (which is what the convo was about):</p>

<p>$500 may be a lot, but when looking at the overall costs of a private, it’s not going to tip the balance. </p>

<p>After all, a student really only needs about 4 flights a year - AT MOST that would add up to about $2,000 (my friend in CA doesn’t come home for winter break, actually, so you may only need 2 flights). I don’t see much of a difference between $50,000 a year and $52,000. So in that sense, it’s chump change - that is, relative to what you’re paying anyway. Ahah. Plus, that’s only if you’re too lazy to find cheaper options, anyway. As a well-traveled college student, I’ve gone across the country on $60 standby flights, and deep into Latin America with $300 round trip tix. And there’s always the option of hoofing it somewhere cheaper and taking some other form of transport the rest of the way home, such as car or bus, if the deals don’t extend EXACTLY to your area (for example standy tix may go from NYC to SF, but say you live in Davis, CA or Dundalk, MD…well the bus trip to those locations and where the cheap flights go can be as cheap as $15.</p>

504

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<p>Exactly. I’m speaking specifically about those “bubble” cultures where, sob, Rice / Wellesley / U of C are the ugly stepchildren, if the poor dear just can’t do any better. I think it is disingenuous to suggest that the same population who thinks of these other types of schools (and good lord, not those schools specifically, the overall CONCEPT of other top schools that aren’t HYPSM) as the unfortunate step-down for the also-rans is the same population that is just completely stymied by the cost of a plane ticket and the logistics of getting to and from an airport.</p>

505

<p>We certainly don’t spend $500 on plane tickets lightly. But the most we have ever spent on a round-trip ticket to Chicago is about $360, and that was only once. Most of the time it has been under $200, and in the first few years was usually under $150. That’s very comparable with train or bus costs between here and anywhere in New England. (Thank you, Southwest.) The “distance cost” for our kids to go to Chicago vs. someplace in the NE Corridor hasn’t been completely negligible, but it hasn’t been anything like thousands of dollars a year, either.</p>

506

<p>S generally flies for ~$200 RT from MDW-BWI. We are hoping our 11 yo Odyssey makes it another four years once we start shuttling two kids to college(s). Never paid for a tutor here. Didn’t do CTY or TIP. No college counselors except the cheap Statas Eval through Dave Berry as a reality check. Both kids in publics w/selective entry programs that do very well at providing an education that enables kids to fly high wherever they attend. S reported that about 60% of his dorm stayed there over TG weekend because they didn’t want to pay airfare home when finals began a week later.</p>

507

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<p>And where did the $500 come from? Chicago’s usually one of the cheapest places in the country to fly to/from. Last time I looked—about 5 minutes ago—it was still possible to get non-stop Southwest flights between Chicago Midway and Boston Logan for $79 each way with 2 weeks advanced purchase, and this includes peak holiday travel days. Midway-LaGuardia is either a little higher or slightly lower ($76 or $97 each way), depending on the travel day. For a lot of kids in the NYC area it’s going to be as cheap or cheaper to fly to Chicago than to fly or take the train to Boston. I can’t believe anyone is seriously proposing this as a reason not to consider Chicago. Heck, it’ll cost more to drive your kid from NYC to Dartmouth than to fly NYC-Chicago.</p>

508

<p>While the main point of the OP is not about the Rhodes scholarship per se, but about disappointment as rebounding from it, here’s an interesting article about another recent Rhodes scholar from the University of Louisville:</p>

<p>[Ky</a>. Rhodes Scholar almost didn’t go to college at all | WHAS11 Louisville, Kentucky and Indiana News | Local News](<a href=“http://www.whas11.com/news/local/Ky-Rhodes-Scholar-almost-didnt-go-to-college-at-all-71064132.html]Ky”>http://www.whas11.com/news/local/Ky-Rhodes-Scholar-almost-didnt-go-to-college-at-all-71064132.html)</p>

<p>[University</a> of Louisville graduate named Rhodes scholar | courier-journal.com | The Courier-Journal](<a href=“http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20091121/NEWS01/911210361/University-of-Louisville-graduate-named-Rhodes-scholar]University”>http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20091121/NEWS01/911210361/University-of-Louisville-graduate-named-Rhodes-scholar)</p>

<p>Some highlights:</p>

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<p>A very different culture from most of us here on CC.</p>

509

<p>bclintonk:</p>

<p>The last time I flew to Chicago from Boston, it did not cost $79. More like well over $300 (I don’t recall the exact fare). With SW coming to Boston, there will be a drop in prices. But that was not the case when NMD’s or my kids were considering college (and both of mine did consider Chicago. One even applied there. He was high on the WL and probably would have come off it. But he decided to attend a LAC two hours from home). My S is returning home on the Megabus. Even if he does not snag a free ticket, the total cost will be less than $79. If he does, it will be less than half that.
By the way, the OP is NMD. Having met him in person at the time his D was a high school senior, I know about the house in dire need of repairs and the macaroni and cheese meals. Expensive vacations? Private tutors? College counselors? Hah! The one indulgence he and his family had were classical music concerts (cheaper, I’m sure, than a lot of rock concerts).
It’s not as if the NE is composed only of millionaires! Nor is it as if only high achieving students with millionaire parents are allowed to set their sights on top schools.</p>

510

<p>I live in the northeast, and from a purely selfish point of view, it is nice to have your kids close to home. (By which I mean 2 - 4 hours away by car.) Travel arrangements can be left to the last minute. They are close enough so that it’s possible to visit without staying overnight in a hotel. Sometimes we just drive up and get them. </p>

<p>I understand the benefit of getting out of the Northeast ghetto though. It’s a big country. One of my favorite tour guides ever was a girl from Connecticut who attended SMU. Someone asked her how she ended up in Dallas and she said she only looked at colleges that she would have to fly to. That’s as good a requirement as any I think.</p>

511

<p>After an initial read a few days ago, I’ve been avoiding this thread but for some reason clicked on it again. (I guess I’m feeling feisty after just having received the finger from an idiot who decided he didn’t want to stop for a stop sign from a feeder road and that I was in his way.).</p>

<p>Just thought I’d respond to the Northwestern Greek scene discussion. My S is at Northwestern and is not Greek. At first, he was a little disturbed by the kids on his floor last year who went Greek and seemed to change, but apparently they’re much more friendly this year, and not all living in fraternities/sororities. In any case, he has found MANY fabulous friends among the non-Greek kids and is friends with some Greek kids. Sure, the Greek percentage is high (some say over 40% of non-international kids), but there are 8,000 undergraduates. That leaves LOTS of non-Greek kids, too. Just thought I’d throw in my two cents.</p>

<p>And Chicago sure is a relatively cheap city to fly into and out of, for us in the NYC area, anyway. Usually are able to get tickets for $160 or at least less than $200. But I do miss not being able to visit easily and cheaply.</p>

512

<p>There are a lot of Northeast private high schools (like Lawrenceville in Princeton, NJ) that take kids from a variety of backgrounds on need-based scholarship. So generalizations are not great. Many of these kids end up at U of Chicago or HYPS. I know one of those…once they go there, transportation costs and other stuff are their parents (and their responsibility). And I see many parents struggle with those costs - really struggle.</p>

513

<p>^umcp11–“…suggesting that OP wasn’t just well off, but really really well off. For these people, I truly feel a plane ticket isn’t going to be the make or break factor.”</p>

<p>in post #499 the OP stated "…Speak for yourself. a $500 plane ticket may be “pocket change” for you. It is not for us. </p>

<p>Tutors, college counselors, travel? Driving a 10 year old car to do a college tour was our idea of travel. Tutors, forget it. Too expensive." </p>

<p>I believe that the OP has stated elsewhere that he works for the V.A. and is far from living on easy street. Frankly, it’s his business how he spends his money anyway.</p>

<p>I think to suppose that one should know another’s financial status is a mistake, and to suggest what someone else’s financial priorities should be is also out of line. Even in upscale neighborhoods there is a spectrum of wealthy and not so wealthy. Close friends of mine have 3 at privates right now and pay full freight for all 3–it’s not a particular burden for them. I could never swing that in my circumstances. Lots of people live big and have debt. Lots of people think education is a priority and take on debt and sacrifice for it in myriad ways. Many wouldn’t do this, and think it’s foolish. But there’s no right and wrong here. These are matters of choice. </p>

<p>Aside from the expected transportation costs of attending a school far away, there are the added costs of extra baggage and perhaps the shipping of items you can’t carry with you and then perhaps summer storage of items that can’t be transported home and possible costs for parent/sibling visiting. It’s never just the cost of a ticket or two, I’m afraid. That $2000 could easily be twice that and a burden for those who are not wealthy. Then there’s the unexpected and unplanned for…D’s roommate, last year–from Cali, quickly discovered this as her father’s income fell substantially after she matriculated. And suddenly, no trip home for Thanksgiving and no visit for Parent’s weekend. And we took two cartons of dorm stuff home for her last summer.</p>

<p>My D takes the bolt bus home to NY from Boston–I stalk the site for the one dollar fares. Last year, an emergency trip home necessitated taking Amtrak–all that was available last minute–it cost $150. A plane ride would’ve been $500+ at the time, which was shocking to me. We plan travel in advance whenever possible to take advantage of any discount we can find. For us that extra $2000 would be a burden as we are already being quite creative to meet our contribution. Certainly our choice, but no need for us to add insult to injury and be forced to live on mac & cheese. </p>

<p>There are some people out there who just don’t like to fly, as well. My D is one of them and for her to fly it has to be someplace she really wants to go with no viable alternative to get her there. Chicago quickly became out of the question, as was any school that wasn’t within a comfortable driving distance for me and didn’t offer affordable and convenient transportation options. </p>

<p>Different strokes for different folks!</p>

514

<p>some of you might find this article interesting. </p>

<p>[Essay:</a> Confessions of An Ivy League Reject - TIME](<a href=“http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,969889,00.html]Essay:”>http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,969889,00.html)</p>

515

<p>Re: all the travel posts (507, 508, 510, et al.):</p>

<p>Distance + holidays make for the difference. Those a long way from home are not expecting parents just to show up any old time for a visit, and if the student is stretched for funds, he/she is going to fly only for the sentimental family occasions, which by definition are expensive. $79? $300? Try $700-800 RT for prime-time flights. (Haven’t checked Chicago specifically recently, but we’ve seen an enormous coast-to-coast difference even vs. 4 yrs ago, confined to holidays.) Depends on what the student’s exam schedule is, class schedule, available transportation to/from the airport – which puts a limit on when they realistically can make a flight without brutalizing the academics. Some students can take midnight flights & sleep; others have not been able to reach that threshold yet.</p>

516

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<p>No. But a culture of “HYPSM or bust” is typically found in areas that are highly affluent, and where the parents themselves are often well-traveled, well-educated, and have exposed their children to a lot in terms of opportunities, so this all-of-a-sudden OMG-how-will-we-manage-a-plane comes out of nowhere. </p>

<p>In the “Rice / Wellesley / U of C are a step down” culture we’re referring to, it wasn’t “oh, poor NMD’s D, her family will now have to spend a few hundred dollars on transportation to Chicago and she’ll have to go through the hassle of getting to an airport.” It was “oh, poor NMD’s D, she has to go a step down.” Because the people in that bubble don’t get that there is intelligent life elsewhere. This “and look at the costs of plane tickets!” is a red herring.</p>

517

<p>PG:
You are so wrong. And even if one happens to live in a suburb that has lots of affluent families, it does not follow that one is affluent.<br>
But a teenager is very vulnerable to peer pressure. At the time when NMD’s D was applying to colleges, Chicago was certainly on her family’s radar screen. Otherwise, how would she even have applied there? (I also believe NMD has a degree from Chicago, so he would be the last to denigrate it!). But it was not on the radar screen of most of her schoolmates. If it was, it would have been as a less desirable school. Not because of the quality of its education, but because of other factors: distance, location.
Is it so hard to understand that a teenager is influenced by what her schoolmates think, however erroneously? Is is so hard to sympathize with a student who, knowing she was one of the best in her school, was passed over by colleges to which students to whom she was comparing herself were admitted? It was not as if only one or two from her school was admitted; there were quite a few. That probably hurt her a lot.<br>
But the message NMD tried to convey was that one can get over rejection and thrive. It is a timely message in view of the avalanche of rejections that is sure to happen over the next few days. Too bad that the message has been buried in such negativity!</p>

<p>As for those who think it’s a good idea to only apply to colleges that necessitate flying, I hope they have the financial means for it. Not every plane ticket costs $79. And not every student has roommates with parents who live locally, willing to put them up over Thanksgiving and Xmas and at various other times and store their belongings over the summer as we did for four years. I’m sure that my S’s roommates were thankful that not everyone wants to attend college a plane-ride away!</p>

518

<p>I think the truth lies somewhere in between what Pizzagirl and marite are saying. Only two students in my daughter’s high school class applied to Chicago, and only one went there. But at her OTHER high school – the elite private school she had attended for 11 years – as of the time Future Rhodes Scholar was making her decisions, Chicago was the second-most frequent destination college for graduates over the previous 10-year period, far behind Penn and slightly ahead of Harvard and Yale. Looking at the vertical 4-5 class she had been in years before, out of 24 kids 5 wound up at Chicago (and four Penns, three Yales, and a couple each at Stanford, Columbia, Brown, and Cornell – it was a pretty special elementary school class). Plus two other friends from the private school also went there, and a girl from her ballet class, and a boy who lived a couple of blocks away and went to the top Catholic prep school here. A few years before, I had actually taught a 10-week literature class to high-schoolers there; the best student in the class had gone to Chicago, and the second-best had gone to Harvard.</p>

<p>That’s not to say Chicago was more popular than HYPS. But it shows that circa 2004 the kids and the school saw Chicago as a great option for intellectually-oriented students who happened not to find (or want) a place at HYPS. Which it was, for them (and for FRS). But it was kind of an insider thing – back then, hoi polloi hadn’t gotten the memo. The culture wasn’t “HYPS or bust” (no one there cared much about M); it was more HYPS or an appropriate substitute, among which Penn and Chicago were the foremost options, depending on what type of kid it was. Or one of 10 LACs or so.</p>

519

<p>Chicago has been a great and well-known option for intellectually-oriented students forever.</p>

520

<p>Anyone who has a genuine interest in making actual kids who are being rejected right this very minute feel better, and not just parents, and has had kids who have been through the ivy league bloodbath, ought to go over to the Cornell and Columbia ED threads where the usual firebombing of high hopes and crushing of long-held dreams is currently going on.</p>