<p>I attended my oldest daughter's high school graduation yesterday. Let me preface what I'm going to say as follows--none of my observations would have affected my daughter in the slightest. I am not a parent who is complaining about the fact that my daughter was not chosen valedictorian or salutorian because, although she did very well in school, no method of calculation other than a discretionary vote by her parents alone would have gotten her those awards. Further, for those who have read some of my thoughts on this Board, I generally believe that entirely too much emphasis is placed on "prestige" and awards in general.</p>
<p>That said, I was stunned to hear from my daughter last week that her class would have multiple valedictorians and salutorians, not because those kids were tied with each other on a grade point basis, but rather because the high school was using both weighted and unweighted grades to reach two separate results. This was not identified in the program--the kids were just identified as valedictorians and/or salutorians without distinction. One of the valedictorians took few, if any, honors or AP classes, in contrast to some kids who did not receive awards despite spectacular grade averages in an extremely rigorous academic schedule (competing against a very high achieving group of students). </p>
<p>Again, this is an easy post for me to make because there's no sour grapes element to it--my daughter got the awards to which she could reasonably have been entitled. And, let me add that I have no problem with recognizing thr achievement of kids who have done extremely well in a non-honors curriculam--that's very lauable, and might show greater effort than really, really smart kids who may be able to get As with less effort. But, to suggest that a kid who got a 4.0 in all honors/AP classes had an equivalent result to one who had the same grades in a less rigorous setting is, to me, symptomatic of a societal need to make everybody feel good, which is as pervasive as the other side of the coin--the view that anyone who doesn't go to an Ivy, an elite LAC, or at least another school in the USNWR Top 25 has either failed or, at least, chosen unwisely. Neither is good.</p>
<p>Is the above a common thing nowadays? And, is my reaction off the wall?</p>
<p>Is it common? Not sure, but it's not UNcommon. I think it's dumb, because school is not about making people feel good--it is about getting an education. There are other ways to honor kids who have acheived to the best of their ability, but that recognition should not encroach upon the Val/Sal distinctions. </p>
<p>Hopefully you didn't have to listen to all those kids give speeches, because believe me--that truly is painful. Hardly been so bored in my entire life!</p>
<p>But, to suggest that a kid who got a 4.0 in all honors/AP classes had an equivalent result to one who had the same grades in a less rigorous setting is, to me, symptomatic of a societal need to make everybody feel good,</p>
<p>I disagree.
:)
My older daughter school- class of 18- small prep- no APs didn't have a val-sal or rank students.
Still students attend top schools ( yes even Swarthmore and UPenn) every year.
a couple speeches- most by the advisor- the director, the chair of the parent group.
My daughter sang a song, some kids danced, one made a hilarious video.</p>
<p>Younger daughters school- class of about 350. Do rank, don't weight.
Some times 40 vals, sometimes 25.
Most AP classes in state- but a magnet school in inner city neighborhood.
The kids who go to Yale and Princeton, know that colleges are going to look at their courses, not just their grades. They would have to be crazy to think that GPA was the king.
However, students who are working really hard in "regular" courses, maybe on a vocational path in computers , why shouldn't they be recognized for their accomplishments?
Why are only paths that lead to college worth applauding?
The colleges look at courses, not just GPA, it isn't as if the students are trying to defraud anyone.
But a student who manages to earn 4.00, through 4 years of school, has also probably attempted an honors or two class, and an AP as well, even if they didn't ascend through the district high acheiver program, and take 5 AP classes as a senior.
Graduation isn't a race- it is a place to recognize accomplishments.</p>
<p>I still think that at a normal public HS, if you are going to do Val/Sal, it should be based on weighted rank/GPA. To me, that's what Val/Sal means...if the school doesn't like that and finds it too limiting, that's fine, but call it something else then. JMO.</p>
<p>I'm in total agreement with the weighted grades being a factor, but it really becomes a slippery slope when you have kids racing for the top spot with only .oo5% (i.e.) separating number one from number two. The only way to take top spot at my son's school was to take early a.m. AP or Honor's classes before the regular start of the school day, take PE and Driver's Ed in summer school or privately, drop out of EC classes that aren't weighted, take an online AP classes (a boy in the race for VAL figured out the system), etc. My son was NOT in the race for Val or Sal. He would have NEVER taken the early a.m. class to boost his grade or PE in summer school to open up a slot for an extra Honor's or AP class. His goal was to make it to the top five without all the extra effort, and he was thrilled to place in the top five. He is in favor of the process and way it's handled at his school; I'm the one who would love to know a better way. I absolutely love seeing the Val and Sal honored, I just wish the we had a better system.</p>
<p>my 2 cents -- maneuvering for top GPA diminishes the student, the school, and the community that accepts/promotes competition for grades. Grades are, at best, an imprecise measure of learning. At worst, they represent success or failure in a corrupt power struggle.</p>
<p>I didn't comment on the other thread, because I really can't come up with any objective way to see who is "best." May as well ask their parents as anything! Best SAT score? Favors the good test-takers. Teacher vote? Favors the teacher's kids, whom all the staff has known from childhood. Highest GPA? Well then, you get the ones who take less rigorous classes, or play the system, and you have to decide if you weight, and how much.</p>
<p>In my HS, way back when, I was surprised to find out I was ranked 4th (of 760). I was a great student, smart and fairly hard-working, but by no means "best." I had a few Bs, and even a C once. I never found out the formula they used, but I found out credit was given for ECs. I was editor of the school newspaper, in the band, marching band, pep club, musical theater, chess club, NHS, etc, etc. My GPA apparently was weighted for those things! The kid who was val was someone who was not taking highest level courses, but she had an after school job, which apparently carried quite a bit of weight. Weird.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, 200 miles away at my hubby's high school, he was ranked 3rd. The person who got Sal had an identical GPA except... my H took orchestra (and got an A) and the other kid took study hall, which carried no grade. Since orchestra was not weighted, my H's GPA actually went down a fraction. So the kid with less credits got the higher GPA.</p>
<p>That was 31 years ago, so I guess the more things change....</p>
<p>I also disagree that it is a feelgood graduation. Our school uses weighted. My kids did fine; neither val or sal, but close enough. I have no dog in this fight.</p>
<p>But, as someone said above, a kid who is working his or her butt off in non-Honors courses and gets a 4.0 is not just being patted on the back and congratulated for nothing. To tell you the truth, my kids knew plenty of students who worked harder than them, but wouldn't have hacked the Honors/AP track, which is narrowed to a very few at our HS. I guess you want to send the message, "hey, you're hardworking, but just not that smart' by differentiating. The older I, and my kids, get, the less I feel the need to make that point.</p>
<p>I do feel that weighted grades are a good way to try to honor the student who performed best in the most difficult course of study ... which is my own idea of what a val should be. Problem is, there are so many ideas of what a val should be! D's school had 6 vals, because everyone above a certain arbitrary gpa & with no B's was a val. Two issues arose: some kids had higher gpa's than a couple vals but weren't honored due to a B, and the one student who actually DID have the highest gpa wasn't really recognized for his amazing feat (although many kids did know how hard he worked & let him know that). </p>
<p>The truth, though, is that in the end ... none of it really matters. Yes, we want to be fair, we want to honor success, etc. And I do feel that it's good to make an attempt at doing so. But when all is said & done ... being a val doesn't bring anything more than a fleeting notice that really makes no difference in one's life. So for the vals ... congratulations are definitely in order. And for the should-be-vals ... their accomplishments are not lessened simply because they didn't get the honorary title.</p>
<p>Of course, after reading the eye-opening thread about cheating ... I can't help but wonder how many vals didn't actually deserve their honor!</p>
<p>My school has eliminated valedictorian - there are usually several - although it still "ranks" based on grade point average, one set for UW GPAs and a second set for W GPAs. This is clearly delineated on transcripts, but I can see where it would be excess to delineate in a cramped graduation program.</p>
<p>In the end, entrance and scholarships to a desireable college are the only functions of rank. College admissions officers always observe a students' success in the context of the difficulty of his/her classes. What does it matter what it says in the program? Let's focus on learning for learning's sake, not for some stupid "title".</p>
<p>Our HS neither weights grades, nor ranks and there is no val or sal. Class president speaks at graduation...and other class officers present awards and announce the graduates. Other speakers include the principal, the class advisors, the dedicatee (?) of the yearbook and the Board of Ed president. Superintendent makes the same 3 line speech every year and accepts the candidates for graduation. We will attend graduation #3 on June 22nd and the last 2 were over in less than 2 hours for classes of 257 and 287 respectively. </p>
<p>Whether I think the OP's school's policy is fair or unfair, I think that it's better to recognize academic accomplishments at whatever level at an appropriate assembly and leave it out of graduation. Just my opinion.</p>
<p>I owe a great debt to the Val of my HS class. Besides having the highest GPA the guy was flat brilliant, way smarter than anyone else in the class. But life didn't work out for him, and because of that I've encouraged my kids to work toward happy and successful lives rather than some fleeting honor that may (or may not) be deserved and which will make no meaningful difference in the long run. If the price of the "honor" is taking a 7 a.m. class that might be of little interest to the student, what exactly does the award represent?</p>
<p>PS, Sorry about the tone. I just sat through a HS Board of Education meeting and that always makes me a little nuts.</p>
<p>Val/Sal status, by definition, is the student who has the highest rank. And I believe that rank should be weighted. So in my opinion, if you are going to rank, it should be weighted, and if you then choose to have a Valedictorian, it should be the student with the highest weighted rank. It's not that I think that students who work really hard at their level shouldn't be recognized, but...they shouldn't be called the valedictorian by my definition of the word (which is not <em>that</em> far off from the actual definition :)). </p>
<p>I'm not on the other thread, which I'm sure is contentious, but by no means do I believe in Val status as particularly meaningful. What I do believe, however, is that if you come from an unknown public HS, you need rank--and I think exact rank is better--to prove that you are near the top of your school. And someone's got to be first and second. Class rank might get overly competitive at times, but in my experience, and my parents' experience, I would say--and be willing to bet that this is the rule--that this competition is almost entirely fueled by the students' parents. </p>
<p>I don't know. I don't get it, I guess. I'm not the state champ in cross country because I run the fastest of a group of people my height and weight. The person who IS the state champ is such because they are the fastest, period. To me, if you are going to acknowledge a Valedictorian, it should be the "fastest runner". I'd be in favor of the method that hardtoimpresses's school uses, because the Valedictorian's at my school were the two kids with the most overbearing parents who would never let a point slide by and who did their work for the sake of the grade, not for learning's sake, and gave terribly boring speeches to boot...but they WERE the valedictorians.</p>
<p>What ever method is applied, it should just be consistent. Ties should be fine as I don't think anyone's kids should be subject to differentials of .001 or smaller. Make a guideline rules and stick to em. If one qualifies fine, if 29 qualify fine. </p>
<p>In our situation we had 7 and 5 vals respectively. Roughly the top half percent which is about what the NMS system seems to apply to their system. </p>
<p>Of the 12, two kids were homeschooled and never set foot in the HS except for sports or jazz band. One kid, kept a 4.0 taking regular classes. Nice kid, parents died, he managed his sibs and helped hold family together with an aunt. Can't look down my nose at his situation as he did the best the situation allowed him to really do. Sometimes the world doesn't give you the perfect study environment. He didn't have the same advantages of a few others. </p>
<p>Basically, all kept their grad speeches short, especially compared to others and we only had to sit for 2 and a half hours for the second one. A big improvement over the 3 plus hours on the first. Outside of most of them being friends with my two VALS, nobody cares all that much after that evening. </p>
<p>Just be consistent, that should be all we ask for. </p>
<p>If you want to call it feel good, then why do you feel bad about it?</p>
<p>I don't know if I made it clear or not, but I would be fine with getting rid of Valedictorian status as a public affair. I'm a supporter of class rank for the average, below average, or slightly above average school. I don't care about the public title part, and the speeches....god knows those were terrible! (As an aside, I do have to say that my HS does one time efficient graduation--750+ graduates, 7 speeches...1.5 hours long. It was great).</p>
<p>(As an aside, I do have to say that my HS does one time efficient graduation--750+ graduates, 7 speeches...1.5 hours long. It was great).</p>
<p>If I ever sire another offspring, I'm moving to your town. </p>
<p>That's considerate. </p>
<p>As far as ranking goes the 7 were ranked #1, the next was ranked #8 and so on. </p>
<p>Since they are now all over the country or graduating from college and starting post grad ( of the first 7 two I know of med school) their rank never came into play with colleges as they went to seven different schools. </p>
<p>But you know, I'm old school. I like bowl games too they should all mean something like they used to. Do you know how much housework I got out of during bowl season? Now, with one game that "matters", well it the pits. I can no longer put off chores for the astro-bluebonnet-weedeater-chicken bowl because it's not the national championship. Boo! to you folks who always have to have a definate #1.... my lazyboy misses me while my toilets shine...</p>
<p>What's wrong with having a val? I think there should only be one, not 7. The whole idea of giving the distinction to more than one student is just wrong to me. You also can't just eliminate it to appease the rest of the students and their parents.</p>
<p>I was a valedictorian at a school where Val was based on unweighted grades only. We had 21 vals. Even though I would have not have been Val/Sal if we had used weighted grades, I would have much preferred that. 21 valedictorians just makes the honor seem somewhat meaningless.</p>
<p>And yes, I also think it's somewhat stupid to have a person with a 4.0 in all regular classes in a school stand next to a person with a 4.0 in all honors / AP courses and claim they have achieved the same amount.</p>