The Future Winner Among State Us is…U North Carolina?

<p>UNC Awaits Budget Action; Double-Digit Cuts Possible</p>

<p>The University continues to face financial uncertainty as the N.C. General Assembly looks for ways to balance the state budget.</p>

<p>The House is considering two steps to help ease the state’s budget shortfall, which is more than $4 billion: an 11 percent cut in state funds for UNC System campuses and an 8 percent increase in tuition.</p>

<p>In the meantime, budget-cutting steps have been taken this spring by the state and the University. Those include furloughs for state employees, the elimination of a top administrative position at Carolina and the launch of an efficiency study.</p>

<p>UNC System President Erskine Bowles '67 also is asking chancellors to rally support against cuts that he says would be greater than the current state funding of the seven smallest campuses combined.</p>

<p>The system asked campuses in December to plan for up to a 7 percent cut in state appropriations for the 2009-10 fiscal year, which begins July 1; officials now expect deeper reductions in funding.</p>

<p>Rob Nelson, the system’s vice president for finance, asked all campuses to plan for budget cuts of 16 percent after seeing the 11 percent budget cuts proposed in the House budget.</p>

<p>The UNC System could see a total budget reduction of 18 percent, with 16 percent coming from campuses and 2 percent from system expenses.</p>

<p>Richard Mann, Carolina’s vice chancellor for finance and administration, said some legislators are considering taking the 11 percent reduction in part from university centers and institutes, a prospect that concerns UNC administrators because the cuts would not allow the University the flexibility to find other budget solutions. Mann told the trustees in May that University officials will argue that UNC should have the authority to decide where to make budget cuts.</p>

<p>Bowles told members of the UNC System Board of Governors in a letter that “the $337 million in cuts being proposed for the [UNC System] would have severe and lasting negative impacts on student access and the quality of education our universities can offer.” Bowles said that cuts of that magnitude would lead to larger classes, less student advising and counseling, higher faculty-to-student ratios, lower retention and graduation rates, delayed classroom upgrades and laboratory renovations, fewer security personnel, reductions in library services, and reductions in maintenance.</p>

<p>He asked the chancellors to “please send out a clear call to your trustees and other key supporters that describes specifically what an 11.1 percent funding cut would mean for your own campus in terms of the jobs that would be lost and the negative impact on the quality of education you would be able to offer your students.” The GAA’s Tar Heel Network, in response, sent a call-to-action e-mail to its nearly 1,000 members on Friday.</p>

<p>Despite the economic downturn, enrollment numbers at UNC have not decreased.</p>

<p>“We have seen no evidence of losing students due to the economy,” Chancellor Holden Thorp '86 told the trustees.</p>

<p>Thorp said Carolina has seen more students apply for financial aid than in past years, though not all students have qualified because financial aid decisions are made based on income and assets, and while some students’ families may have experienced a loss in income, they still have assets.</p>

<p>In April, Gov. Beverly Perdue approved an executive order that established a flexible furlough plan. University employees are seeing reductions in pay, taken from employees’ base pay, for May and June. The flexible furlough plan applies to part- and full-time nonfaculty employees, UNC faculty, postdoctoral research associates and temporary employees; student workers were not included.</p>

<p>UNC eliminated the position of vice chancellor for public service and engagement, held by Michael Smith '78 (JD), dean of the School of Government.</p>

<p>The 8 percent (or $200, whichever is less) across-the-board tuition increase would add $200 to Carolina’s tuition for fall 2009, raising the rate to $4,065 per year (excluding fees) for in-state undergraduates, and $21,953 for non-North Carolinians.</p>

<p>In April, a consulting company - hired with funds from an anonymous donor to help identify ways to increase efficiency in University operations - presented an interim report after gathering information from 315 employees and students. The study by Bain & Co. found that administrative expenses per student at UNC have grown faster than academic expenses. From 2004 to 2008, the University added more than 1,000 full- and part-time employees, the majority in support roles. Meanwhile, the consultants found the University’s management structure to be inefficient. According to the report, there are as many as nine layers of management from the staff level to the chancellor’s office, and 50 percent of managers supervise only one to three employees.</p>

<p>Operational inefficiencies were found in UNC’s finance and human resources systems and in other areas across the University.</p>

<p>Bain is expected to present a final report to the Board of Trustees at its July meeting. The consultants are expected to identify and present opportunities for the University to reduce complex operating systems, increase efficiency and identify possible savings across campus.</p>

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<p>This very well may be true, but North Carolina already offers these things and many, many people are choosing to take advantage of them. </p>

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<p>As someone who has lived in both Europe and the Middle East, I can tell you that you are completely wrong. Loads of respectable people abroad know about UNC and its excellent academic reputation. Even more know about it because of its successful sports programs.</p>

<p>tsdad, thanks for posting this article. Maybe this will open hawkette’s eyes to the reality of the situation in North Carolina.</p>

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<p>It appears that statistics continue to prove you wrong. Lots of talented OOS students have turned down and will continue to turn down schools like Harvard, Yale, Georgetown, Duke, UVa, Michigan and etc. to attend UNC. This is particularly true of the Morehead Scholars. It is insanely difficult to get into UNC OOS for a reason-tons of people apply to UNC, and only the very best will do. </p>

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<p>Once again, wrong (see above).</p>

<p>tsdad, that’s a super example of what I was talking about in an earlier post. Lots of public schools are going to send messages to their alums just like UNC’s. The messages will emphasize the pain of the budget situation, while celebrating a school’s effectiveness at finding cuts. Universities wants alums to feel the school is effective, but also wants them to put pressure on legislators – and to feel moved to donate when asked.</p>

<p>This discussion is getting a little insane, and I say this as a graduate of UNC graduate school and as a current employee of one of UM’s sister schools in the Big Ten. I loved UNC, my son was accepted there out-of-state I may add (but didn’t go,) and I met my wife there. But it isn’t UCB or Michigan. And, you know what? It doesn’t matter. It is a wonderful place. My MA in southern history is held in high esteem. I had wonderful teachers, made lots of friends, and got lots of jobs. That’s all that counts.</p>

<p>Too much data tends to lead one astray.</p>

<p>Hawkette, I’m not talking schools or anything else. I’m not talking other people’s opinions.</p>

<p>Hawkette, is a person who scores a 2150 on a SAT test smarter than a person who scores 2050?</p>

<p>tsdad, I just want to inform you that I’m not an UNC hater. Most of us here despise how hawkette beats down on Michigan’s reputation. I will admit that UNC is a GREAT place to study history, especially American (colonial, southern, African American).</p>

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Hawkette, you make it sound like Michigan is just riding the coattails of its “high” PA score. When you compare its objective data to that of UNC (the subject of this thread), how is Michigan “struggling”? Even with the 25% weighting for PA, Michigan is ranked 26, while UNC is ranked #30. </p>

<p>If PA had such a strong impact as you seem to suggest it does, Michigan would be rated higher.</p>

<p>Tenisghs</p>

<p>I don’t believe you are. I like Michigan. I made $10,000 off of UM, well actually off of the Feds, by serving as a consultant to NASA on a compliance review at Ann Arbor a couple of years ago. Good people there. Well, mostly, from what we observed.</p>

<p>Tsdad, it doesn’t matter what you observed.</p>

<p>An opinion is better if it is formed by reading about a school’s SAT scores, while sitting on a toilet, than by visiting the place, or actually being a student or professor there. ;)</p>

<p>I find this interesting.</p>

<p>If I am an undergrad and go to Middlebury or Wash U I get a better education than somebody who goes to Michigan.</p>

<p>So what does it mean if I am an undergrad taking a grad course at Michigan with students who graduated from Middlebury and Wash U?</p>

<p>What does it mean for me…an inferior education? My fellow students in my actual class are pretty strong.</p>

<p>If I’m getting an inferior education, what does it mean for the Middlebury and Wash U grad students? What are they doing in the grad class? They must be getting a very poor graduate education.</p>

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<p>hawkette,
I guess you can add tsdad to the list…but then again he is an academic (and I know how highly you value the opinion of “those academics”)… ;)</p>

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But aren’t Middlebury and Washington University lacking the vibrant athletic scene that hawkette views as critically important? :confused:</p>

<p>They can play with themselves. ;)</p>

<p>Can I play? (In high, whiny voice) I like Michigan, tooooooooooooooo. :D</p>

<p>Full disclosure" niece is a recent grad from Carolina, but discouraged my D from applying because its “too provincial” (her words, not mine).</p>

<p>A few quick responses:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I never claimed that U North Carolina does not also face some financial issues; I contend that its relative position is better than that of the UCs, U Virginia and U Michigan. I think it also has more room to respond to the current environment to bring in more revenue, eg, can raise what is a much lower tuition rate for IS students, can raise what is a much lower tuition rate for OOS students, increase the number of higher-paying OOS students, etc.</p></li>
<li><p>As far as attracting top OOS students, I don’t think that U North Carolina is inferior to any of these other publics. In fact, given the great difficulty in getting in, it is conceivable that, of these publics, U North Carolina may have the highest quality OOS students attending. </p></li>
<li><p>In the world of elite academia, hell will probably have to freeze over before they would allow a southern state university to gain a higher level of prestige than the historical winners. Also, I think that the graduate school reps of UC Berkeley, U Virginia, UCLA, and U Michigan are all better than U North Carolina and that what’s really drives academic prestige anyway. My interest, here and elsewhere, is on the undergraduate environment. On that, IMO, U North Carolina has the wherewithal and competitive position to rise to the top of the public ranks. </p></li>
<li><p>tenisghs-Presenting information that compares schools is not “beating down” on a school. </p></li>
<li><p>ucb-Using USNWR’s ranking methodology, but excluding PA, I estimate that U Michigan’s rank would be 5th among public universities and 37th overall among national universities (a drop of 11 spots) and U North Carolina’s would be 4th among publics and 32nd overall ( a drop of 2 spots).</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Bluebayou, you don’t have to go to Michigan to play with …</p>

<p>Although, I hear Middlebury and WashU students do it better. :)</p>

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Normally I agree with you, but here’s a bit of reading.</p>

<p>[Michigan</a> Daily – The Real Reason You Didn’t Win the Rhodes Scholarship](<a href=“http://www.michigandaily.com/content/real-reason-you-didnt-win-rhodes-scholarship]Michigan”>The real reason you didn't win a Rhodes scholarship)</p>

<p>I would argue that taken in aggregate, the number of Rhodes produced can indeed be a good metric (one of many). I find it quite telling, for example, that despite its size and vaunted selectivity and academic prowess, Berkeley has produced a pitiful [four</a> Rhodes since 1964](<a href=“http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/12/09_rhodes_winners.html]four”>12.09.2002 - UC Berkeley Rhodes Scholarship winners). </p>

<p>Yep, that’s right. Berkeley has produced four scholars in the last 45 years, despite having 25000 undergrads. UNC, on the other hand, has produced over [six</a> times as many](<a href=“Carolina Alumni”>http://alumni.unc.edu/article.aspx?sid=3326) in the same time span. Heck, even Wake Forest has produced about a dozen in the last 20 years!</p>

<p>The same holds for UVA, which has as many Rhodes as UNC. Despite being considerably smaller than Michigan or Berkeley and lacking their “world-renowned” science/engineering programs, UVA has still managed to outperform both Michigan (by a slim margin) and Berkeley in the production of Goldwater scholars (even more embarrassing, Penn State and UIUC do too).</p>

<p>"alex,
My error on part of the earlier U Michigan ranking comment and some clarification. </p>

<p>Since 1991 when USWNR began publishing rankings on more than the subjective Peer Assessment, I meant that the school has never ranked # 1. They have ranked # 2 on 6 occasions (with 3 of those times being ties for # 2 with another public). I think it is noteworthy and interesting that, when using the full USNWR methodology, U Michigan has never ranked ahead of U Virginia."</p>

<p>Hawkette, first of all, you confidently claimed that it was a “fact” that Michigan was never ranked #2 among public universities. And whether Michigan has been ranked higher than UVa according to the USNWR is not even worth discussing since the two universities are always ranked within 1-4 spots of each other out of thousands of universities. If one were to go purely by the USNWR, Michigan and UVa are identical.</p>

<p>"If one were to rank based solely on objective factors only, ie, without the subjective PA scoring, the current USNWR State U rankings would be:</p>

<ol>
<li>U Virginia</li>
<li>UC Berkeley</li>
<li>UCLA</li>
<li>U North Carolina</li>
<li>U Michigan"</li>
</ol>

<p>Hawkette, there is no difference whatsoever between those universities statistically. IF you genuinely feel that a mean SAT score of 1330 is inferior to a mean SAT score of 1340 or 45% of classes have fewer than 20 students is inferior to 50% of classes have fewer than What separates them is . </p>

<p>“tenisghs,
A conspiracy theorist, huh? U Michigan gaining in popularity on CC? Really? Well, let’s see who’s pumping up U Michigan in this thread: goblue, rjkonovi, dstark, RML, hoedown, tyler09, tranandy, alexandre, OHKid, kb10, and you (did I miss anybody?). With the exception of RML (who seems to think that U Michigan’s rep in the Philippines is meaningful in the selection of an undergraduate school), all are either grads, students, employees, parents of UM attendees or, in the case of OHkid, hopeful high schoolers. If you want to interpret that as a groundswell of supporters, then be my guest.”</p>

<p>Hawkette, just because some of us are alums or students at a university does not mean we are biased or pumping it up. I respected Michigan before being a student there. I did turn down 9 other top 25 universities in favor of Michigan afterall.</p>

<p>“U Michigan’s dilemma is that, once you peel away the PA scoring measurement, and start looking at how the school compares to others on objective factors that can be meaningful to the average undergraduate student, the school struggles.”</p>

<p>How does it struggle against the other elite publics exactly? Even if you use the very flawed and extremely inaccurate USNWR statistics, Michigan does not trail the other four schools in any significant way:</p>

<p>STUDENT SELECTIVITY:
Cal:#14
Michigan: #18
UCLA: #21
UVa: #28
UNC: #34</p>

<p>SAT ranges according to the schools’ respective CDSs:
Cal: 1810-2190
UVa: 1830-2160
Michigan: 1810-2130
UNC: 1800-2080
UCLA: N/A</p>

<p>ACT Ranges according to their respective CDSs:
UVa: 27-32
Michigan: 27-31
UNC: 26-31
Cal: N/A
UCLA: N/A</p>

<p><a href=“http://cds.berkeley.edu/pdfs/PDF%20wBOOKMARKS%2008-09.pdf[/url]”>http://cds.berkeley.edu/pdfs/PDF%20wBOOKMARKS%2008-09.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“Office of Budget and Planning”>Office of Budget and Planning;

<p>[UVa</a> CDS - C. First-time, First-year Admission](<a href=“http://www.web.virginia.edu/IAAS/data_catalog/institutional/cds/current/admissions.htm#current]UVa”>http://www.web.virginia.edu/IAAS/data_catalog/institutional/cds/current/admissions.htm#current)</p>

<p>[Office</a> of Institutional Research and Assessment - Common Data Set](<a href=“http://oira.unc.edu/facts-and-figures/data-summaries-and-publications/common-data-set.html]Office”>http://oira.unc.edu/facts-and-figures/data-summaries-and-publications/common-data-set.html)</p>

<p>FINANCIAL RESOURCES RANK:
UCLA: #26
UNC: #31
Michigan: #35
Cal: #44
UVa: #63</p>

<p>ENDOWMENTS:
Michigan: $7.6 billion
UVa: $4.6 billion
Cal: $3.5 billion
UNC: $2.4 billion
UCLA: $2.3 billion</p>

<p>ENDOWMENT PER STUDENT:
UVa: $227,000
Michigan: $177,000
Cal: $100,000
UNC: $84,000
UCLA: $60,000</p>

<p>Michigan’s endowment has grown faster than any university in the nation, including the 4 other elite public universities in this post.</p>

<p>FACULTY RESOURCES:
Cal: #33
UVa: #35
UCLA: #42
UNC: #50
Michigan: #72</p>

<p>Like I said, even if those USNWR statistics were remotely accurate (and they aren’t), I don’t see how Michigan is “struggling”. I have not seen any indication that UNC is outpacing its public peers.</p>

<p>Glad to see yhat you included me as a U of M supporter earlier, Hawkette.</p>

<p>Anyways, although I am a prospective high schooler like you mentioned, that is not the main reason why I posted on this thread. Actually, I am an avid urban revitilization and gentrification activist for my hometown rust-belt city, and I truly find it degrading to our region when I see “The future winner among state U’s is North Carolina!” plastered across my computer screen. This leads to further anti-north bias, propelled by 40 years of southerner presidents, Fox news, the ride of conservatism, Rush the evil pill-taking munchkin lard-faced devil (yes, I tried very hard to not use profanity there), and the missteps of a mistaken auto industry, along with the rise of globalization, NAFTA, and other moronic ideas. No, this is not the fault of any particular party or group since both parties and many former leaders are responsible for such changes, but it does make me furious when people blindly think that the sunbelt, its industry, and its institutions are automatically better because of their location. This thinking style further degrades the rust belt and the northeast, the very two regions which built our nation into what it is today, and maybe even its colleges.</p>

<p>However, many of the rust belt colleges have been better for many years now than southern colleges, and unlike the high-flying world of the corporate economy, it is much, much harder to change the reputation (and quality) of colleges due to tenured faculty and strong association with its alumni base. Although the state of michigan may be going through a tough time (however, I did recently travel by Ann Arbor and its northern suburbs, and there is still a fair amount of new development, including a huge high-rise building in the center of Ann Arbor), the university still has the same staff, alumni, and resources that made it such a great university 5 or 10 years ago. There has been no downward spiral at U of M, and the fact that it accepts many OOS ensures this. </p>

<p>UNC is a great school as well, but when it is displayed on here like it will enivatibly become the top public school in the US because it is like the south’s freakin’ destiny to kill the rust belt entirely, that makes me angry. Very Angry.</p>