<p>
</p>
<p>Cal: 1810-2190, 4225 frosh
UVa: 1830-2160, 3248 frosh
Michigan: 1810-2130, 5922 frosh
UNC: 1800-2080, 3893 frosh</p>
<p>It helps to put some context of sample size when relaying stastical averages.</p>
<p>Alex,
For the record, I don’t think that U Michigan struggles in comparison with the other top State Us. That was not my intended claim. My reference was meant that U Michigan struggles in comparisons with the full universe of national universities, including privates. </p>
<p>For the record, I believe that U Michigan is a peer school to the other top publics as well as to similarly-sized state universities like U Wisconsin, U Illinois, U Florida, U Texas and Penn State.</p>
<p>So, what’s next after this, Ohio State and University of Arkansas are superior to Cal/UMich?</p>
<p>RML,
That is exactly the type of snobbish comment that U Michigan supporters regularly make that absolutely sends me. You’re thrilled to be associated with schools like UC Berkeley or U Virginia (which are almost always ranked more highly), but you’re dismissive of associations with schools like U Wisconsin or U Illinois or U Texas as if they’re dogmeat. You know, there really are a lot of other great colleges around the country. Give 'em a little more credit as the truth is that both sets of schools are U Michigan’s closest peers.</p>
<p>hawkette, </p>
<p>I am aware that there are many more excellent schools in the US than I can actually mention on here, but I think it’s absurd to say UNC > UMich, let alone UC Berkeley. UNC does not have the prestige that UMich has, let alone Berkeley.</p>
<p>I believe that U North Carolina and U Michigan are peer schools. Even if I’m right that U North Carolina is better positioned financially, I don’t expect that relationship to change even if U Michigan goes ahead of U Michigan in some rankings. </p>
<p>And I know it’s not very accepted around CC (especially among supporters of schools that are beloved in the world of elite academia), but I don’t really care a lot about prestige. I care a lot more about the actual student experience and the undergraduate environment that a school provides for its students and how that prepares them for life after college.</p>
<p>“For the record, I believe that U Michigan is a peer school to the other top publics as well as to similarly-sized state universities like U Wisconsin, U Illinois, U Florida, U Texas and Penn State.”</p>
<p>Sorry Hawkette, you aren’t a peer.</p>
<p>The University of Michigan’s peer schools as judged by …its peers.</p>
<p><a href=“Physics & Astronomy | Johns Hopkins University”>Physics & Astronomy | Johns Hopkins University;
<p>"America’s Best Colleges 2008 (2007 Survey - Peer Assessment)
Rank School
Peer
Assessment**
1 Princeton University (NJ) 4.9
1 Harvard University (MA) 4.9
1 Stanford University (CA) 4.9
1 Massachusetts Inst. of Technology 4.9
5 Yale University (CT) 4.8
5 University of California - Berkeley* 4.8
7 California Institute of Technology 4.7
8 Columbia University 4.6
8 University of Chicago 4.6
8 Cornell University (NY) 4.6
8 Johns Hopkins University (MD) 4.6
12 University of Pennsylvania 4.5
12 University of Michigan – Ann Arbor * 4.5
14 Duke University (NC) 4.4
14 Brown Unversity (RI) 4.4
16 Darmouth College (NH) 4.3
16 Northwestern University (IL) 4.3
16 University of Virginia* 4.3
19 Carnegie Mellon University ¶ 4.2
19 University of California - Los Angeles* 4.2
19 University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill* 4.2
- denotes a public school.
**Peer assessment is one of 18 indicators used by U.S. News to measure an instituion’s composite weighted score and
rank. The peer assessment indicator is based on interviews conducted by U.S. News with top academics (e.g.
presidents, provosts, and deans of admission) in which respondants are asked to rate peer schools’ academic programs
on a scale from one (marginal) to five (distinguished). Those who don’t know enough about a school to evaluate it
fairly are asked to mark “don’t know.”</p>
<p>If North Carolina is a peer of the University of Michigan, then so is Yale a peer of the University of Michigan.</p>
<p>“For the record, I don’t think that U Michigan struggles in comparison with the other top State Us. That was not my intended claim. My reference was meant that U Michigan struggles in comparisons with the full universe of national universities, including privates.”</p>
<p>US News ranking - 26th overall, 4th best public university, 18th most selective
Department ranking - around 70% of Michigan’s 200 or so major programs are ranked top 10 in the US ==> one of the very best in business, medical, education, law, and engineering.
SJTU ranking - 21st overall
Newsweek ranking - 11th overall
THES ranking - 18th overall</p>
<p>Hmm… My alma mater doesn’t seem to be “struggling”, at least from my point of view. Lol, seriously hawkette, what’s your problem with Michigan?</p>
<p>Her problem is that she can’t conceive that a school with over 40,000 students in it can be elite. She just assumes that Michigan is like her alma mater, The Ohio State University.</p>
<p>"The peer assessment indicator is based on interviews conducted by U.S. News with top academics (e.g.
presidents, provosts, and deans of admission) in which respondants are asked to rate peer schools’ academic programs
on a scale from one (marginal) to five (distinguished).</p>
<p>“Department ranking - around 70% of Michigan’s 200 or so major programs are ranked top 10 in the US ==> one of the very best in business, medical, education, law, and engineering.”</p>
<p>Hmmm. Makes sense that Michigan’s peers rank the school so high.</p>
<p>Ranking according to academic programs, not SAT scores.</p>
<p>Hmmm. And how many departments does Claremont McKenna have?</p>
<p>boy, hawkette, i gotta tell ya, you might need to make a new screenname soon, 'cause you are just getting killed.</p>
<p>rjkofnovi, she is a OSU alum? No wonder she is so obsessed with Michigan. LOL</p>
<p>I’ve been a longtime Michigan fan since I grew up in the state and have relatives and close friends that have attended the institution, but the attitude of many of the UMich supporters on this site have really turned me of towards the school.</p>
<p>UNC isn’t a peer of UMich? Michigan isn’t even a top 25 school anymore according to USNews. UNC is only 4 spots behind it. Hawkette is exactly right when she says that the UMich proponents on CC like to place their school alongside with more prestigious schools but denigrate schools that are of similar quality than it or are slightly below it. </p>
<p>Alexandre, dstark, rjk, ProudWolverine and the rest of the band of Michigan fanatics compare UMich to Penn and Duke, when these schools are solid top 10 institutions and UMich has dropped out of the top 25 in USNews. They contradict themselves because by their logic if UMich is a peer to Penn, then UNC is most definitely a peer to UMich.</p>
<p>
FOR THE LAST TIME, that list you provided is comparing ACADEMIC programs. Hawkette is talking about the quality of undergraduate education and the overall undergraduate experience. UNC is definitely a peer to Michigan in that regards and schools like Wisconsin and UT Austin aren’t too far behind. UNC has a better financial aid program, smaller classes, better student to faculty ratios, more student resources per capita, etc.</p>
<p>
First of all, this thread isn’t about academic prestige like Hawkette has stated many times. Also, why do you always speak in macro terms? Certainly international prestige is a consideration, but these are American institutions and their reputation in the U.S. is what matters first and foremost. Most grads of these unis are going to be seeking jobs domestically.</p>
<p>
I guarantee you Claremont McKenna grads have better job prospects than the typical Michigan grads so they’re the ones who will be having the last laugh dstark, not you. </p>
<p>Don’t you understand that MOST STUDENTS don’t care about the quality of academic programs? Superstar faculty members do nothing for me and most of my peers. I would rather have a knowledgeable PhD student who is keen on teaching the material than a Nobel Laureate. Frankly, it’s an embarassment that these esteemed scholars are even teaching undergraduate classes.</p>
<p>i am an actual high school senior who has just completed the college selection process.
As far as I’m concerned uva, unc, and umich are all the exact SAME. They are all three great schools and I applied to unc and uva. I didnt apply to michigan simply for personal reasons, but its still a really great school. My friend got in, but is going to northwestern instead bc michigan didnt give enough money. Anyway i was accepted to both uva and unc with full tution from unc and $8,000 yr for uva. My final decision unc, bc it gave me full tution. Point of the story is that current applicants dont care about which student body is stronger or the “prestige ranking”. We care about if we can afford it and that is where the top applicants are going to go which ever one is better financially. It’s just silly not to go for the better value which ever college that might be bc those 3 are the same thing! so whatever you guys are argoing about is just pointless in my opinon.</p>
<p>^There you have it, ladies and gents. Have a great time at UNC fn18! It’s a fantastic school and you will have an incredible time at basketball games, even though Duke should be better next year.;)</p>
<p>It’s spelled “Dook.”</p>
<p>“Don’t you understand that MOST STUDENTS don’t care about the quality of academic programs?”</p>
<p>I hope that isn’t true.</p>
<p>I don’t think I said that UNC wasn’t a peer school of Umich.</p>
<p>ring of fire,
Thanks for weighing in. Of course you’re right on target with your comments. The Michigan posse has close to zero appreciation for colleges beyond the city limits of Ann Arbor. They really need to get out more and actually see a lot of the other schools around the country and meet the people. Lots of terrific folks attend places like U Wisconsin, U Texas, etc and they’re pretty fine places as well. I’m pretty sure that the vast majority of them would consider U Michigan a peer school. Are they wrong, U Michigan partisans? If you think so, how? </p>
<p>IMO, U Michigan has a lot of peers among the State University crowd (and so does U North Carolina). Anyone with eyes and a brain and who isn’t completely in the tank for U Michigan can see that. But dare state that on CC and prepare to be tarred and feathered by the assassination squad from AA who can’t tolerate any opposing opinion or statistical comparison that might lump their beloved with “lesser” colleges. </p>
<p>fn18,
Nice choice on U North Carolina. It’s a wonderful place and I’m sure you will love it. I’m also always impressed at the politeness of North Carolina grads who, while they know they’re pretty darn good, they retain a sense of balance and are respectful of the quality of other places (except for Duke 
)…and even if they’re ranked a few spots below them in some ranking.</p>
<p>"“FOR THE LAST TIME, that list you provided is comparing ACADEMIC programs. Hawkette is talking about the quality of undergraduate education and the overall undergraduate experience. UNC is definitely a peer to Michigan in that regards and schools like Wisconsin and UT Austin aren’t too far behind. UNC has a better financial aid program, smaller classes, better student to faculty ratios, more student resources per capita, etc.”</p>
<p>"FOR THE LAST TIME, that list you provided is comparing ACADEMIC programs "</p>
<p>Yes…just like I said.</p>
<p>“more student resources per capita”</p>
<p>Would you please show me how this is true?</p>
<p>Well, to move this discussion in a slightly new direction, this could potentially be a time for public schools to gain in scholarly assets, reputation, and prestige. If ever there was a time to go on a raid of other faculties, this is it. With many top schools (even the wealthy privates) facing hiring freezes and limited salary increases, it creates some real opportunities for other schools to recruit excellent scholars away.</p>
<p>The problem is, if nearly every school is under constraint, then few of them can boldly start vacuuming up top faculty. It isn’t clear to me that UNC really has the rosy budget situation that has been implied by the OP. But if they do, this is a huge opportunity for them. </p>
<p>If nothing else, it can provide some breathing room for top publics. They are regularly raided by elite privates, and they wouldn’t mind that action slowing down.</p>
<p>ETA: I can’t believe hawkette posted this strawman:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>What a laugh! I’ve seen members of “The Michigan Posse” (??) compliment those schools, even recommend students attend those schools over Michigan.</p>