The Guidance Counselor has not heard of the common app

Parents Forum
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<p>Mathmom- It sounds like your school does a great job with college counseling. Unfortunately it seems like schools like yours and ours are in the minority.</p>

<p>The chasing down part only happened in our case because one of DS’s recommenders left the school and the state after his junior year. We didn’t have any contact information for her so it was nice to know that the school had been in contact and DS’s CC assured us the school would ensure the letter would come in on time. The school has students identify their recommenders before the end of junior year so teachers have the summer to write letters.</p>

<p>Pizzagirl-
DS looked at schools over March break so I agree that a spring meeting would have been too late. Our first formal meetings were in the fall of junior year. At that time the school gives each family a 95 page admissions handbook put out out by the school. It includes information on everything-standardized testing, financial aid, colleges abroad, interviewing tips, LDs, gap years, how to fill out the various forms, etc…</p>

<p>It includes a section for parents on “staying sane through your child’s application process.” Some of my favorite advice:</p>

<p>“Before you blab your child’s SAT scores to the rest of the world, think how you’d feel if she did that with your weight.” </p>

<p>“Leaving home for a new independence is often a stressful proposition. Adolescents often handle stress by sleeping. Don’t be surprised if your child dozes off at college night or even at those stimulating information sessions on campus. And don’t despair. If you look around, half the room is asleep. The young half.”</p>

<p>“Remember, Harvard admitted some geniuses, but they also admitted the Unabomber.”</p>

<p>and my ultimate favorite…
“When you wished for a perfect child, your wish was granted.”</p>

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<p>A lot of people think “Ivy League” just means “top school.” They don’t understand it’s not just a descriptive term for any school with highly competitive admissions standards. This isn’t as common on the east coast, but it does happen, especially among people who aren’t originally from the area or who didn’t go to college themselves.</p>

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<p>The GCs at S1 and S2’s high schools also had presentations for parents and kids junior year, encouraged use of Naviance, etc. They tried to discuss FA at a very general level, but again, it was the fantasy “if you get in, they can make the $$ work” vs the realities of loans vs. grants in FA packages, etc. The GCs were loath to get into those kinds of specifics because they didn’t want to been seen as directing kids to specific places based on SES. </p>

<p>One of the GCs discussed S1’s college list; S2’s GC did not. Our expectation is that the GCs would have a good handle on schools in our state, because that is where many of their graduates attend. I did not expect a GC to be able to speak to Reed vs. Swarthmore or the % of math majors Harvey Mudd sent to PhD programs. </p>

<p>Both schools had one day in English class where they looked at college essays. Not a particularly productive event, in the opinion of both kids. Because they were at specialized programs, a lot of colleges came to visit. This was helpful in meeting the adcoms for this area, and both kids were on a first name basis with a couple of them by the time they actually applied to places.</p>

<p>Agree that spring of junior year is late to get started, esp. if one is looking at ED, selective schools, athletic recruiting, Questbridge, etc. We did NOT want SAT/SAT-II testing happening during senior year. We also took teacher days and spring break during junior year to visit schools and winnow down the list. However, we didn’t go to schools “just to see” what they were like. If we made a trip, there was specific interest, which meant the guys had done some research on the place beforehand.</p>

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<p>Early senior year a college essay is actually an assignment in AP and Honors English at our high school. I think it’s a good idea to have the English teacher critique.</p>

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<p>My question for all of you who’ve been through this process is why do the students need the LOR from the GC? Unless the student attends a very small school or one with many GC’s the chances of the GC knowing the student are slim.</p>

<p>GC at DD’s private school thus far has been fairly communicative, meeting with students at the end of sophomore year, sending weekly emails regarding visiting colleges and hosting a college night. She is a dedicated college counselor, but she has 200 seniors and 200 juniors to deal with so there has been no personal interaction, yet.
We hired a private GC and she was helpful in several ways, including offering to set up meetings with former clients with similar interests who got in to their dream schools and would give DD a realistic view of college life. The networking was invaluable but it’s far easier to accomplish in Oregon which is so much smaller than many other states.</p>

<p>So thankful for CC for our family as well as others. I’ve been passing on nuggets of information to friends whose kids attend our local public high school where sadly the stories of the GC’s incompetence are legion.</p>

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<p>Sometimes the GC LOR is required along with teacher LORs. On naviance there is a “parent brad sheet” that parents fill out and submit. The GC uses that along with their own observations to write the LOR in many cases. Sometimes there are situations of hardship, etc. included on those “brag sheets” that the GC may not be aware of.</p>

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<p>I emailed D’s counselor to ask some questions about classes for next year and beyond. She immediately offered to meet anytime but I suggested meeting after her college rush is over. So we’re meeting just after Thanksgiving…which seems early to me but was her suggestion. </p>

<p>I LOVE our GC. She answers emails or calls back very quickly. This in a public school, her personal student load is about 300 kids. We didn’t use her for college selection for S’12, but frankly I was already hanging out here and had that covered :)</p>

<p>The guidance department in general conducts parent nights about college from 9th grade on, and financial aid info nights led by a consultant (who is looking for business but is not pushy), publishes pretty detailed timetables for what to do over the 4 years of HS to be ready, meets with all students at least 1x a year or more, has workshops for doing common app and essay writing. There are lists of scholarships posted in the office and emailed out to parents, opportunities for summer pre-college programs and internships…we are very fortunate. We also have Naviance, which takes care of a lot of the safety-match-reach stuff.</p>

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<p>Every school to which my kids applied wanted a letter/forms from the GC. My kid and I each had to fill out forms for the GC so she could write her letter. We also used these questionnaires to let the GC know about certain issues that she might want to mention but that my kids did not want to discuss in an essay (i.e, accommodations, illness in the family, etc.). This usually generated an email or phone conversation with the GC, and we’d talk about whether it was a good idea to specifically mention an issue or not. </p>

<p>The GCs did these letters over the summer before senior year. However, when one of my sons started winning some big awards during senior year, the GC went back and updated her letter, unprompted.</p>

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<p>I’m a National Merit Scholar and the amount of misinformation that the guidance counselors at my school have about this scholarship, which is awarded to a significant number of students at my school each year, is astounding.</p>

<p>Last year around May I asked my counselor when I would get National Merit notifications and her response was something like, “Oh, we’re still doing those? I didn’t know that. I though we’d stopped.”</p>

<p>So I basically learned never to come to her with scholarship questions. And the guidance counselors at my school are no help with college lists either, since they push the state school so hard on students. My counselor went so far as to include the state school on my college list despite my repeated protests. She insisted that it was a reach for “everyone”, even though my GPA and SAT scores are much, much higher than the average. When I asked her basic information about other, out-of-state schools, she had no idea what to say and told me as much.</p>

<p>Point is, there are a lot of pretty terrible counselors out there. You’d think that schools would put more emphasis on hiring people with college counseling experience since that’s a big part of being a high school counselor, but apparently not.</p>

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<p>I am a high school counselor and would like to address several of the points brought up in this post.</p>

<p>First, I agree that some of you have had unacceptable experiences.</p>

<p>However, I do think quite a few of the posts are unreasonable. School counseling graduate programs focus on addressing social/emotional needs of students. I graduated from one of the top 5 ranked school counseling graduate programs in the country, and did not have a single class on college counseling. My school counseling internship was in an urban high school where the focus was on at-risk students. </p>

<p>I am now a high school counselor at a small private school where 90% of my job is college counseling. I am also the only counselor, which means I don’t have a more experienced counselor to work with. Everything I know I have learned on the job, with just a couple continuing education classes focused on college counseling, paid for on my own and taken completely on my own time, thrown in. I don’t know everything, but I do know where to find answers. When a student asks me something I don’t know, I say “I’m not sure, but let’s look it up together.” How is that a problem?</p>

<p>I will fully admit that I had not heard of the Common App when I started my job in 2008. My first student using it happened to be applying to my undergrad alma mater, Notre Dame, which hadn’t been a Common App school in 1999 when I applied. She showed it to me, and then I was informed. Be honest - did you know absolutely everything you needed for your job within the first 2 months?</p>

<p>I would also like to address the poster who had an issue with the fact that her counselor “worked 8-3:30 and took a lunch break.” Really?? Our students are in session from 7:45-2:30. I work 7:30-3:00 (the same number of hours that the 8-3:30 counselor works). I am available the entire time that the students are in session, with a little extra, and I take a lunch break which I am fully entitled to by law. What am I supposed to do, work until 5 when the building is empty after 3 anyways, and never eat? If you want to meet and can’t come during my hours, I am available in the evening during parent-teacher conferences, open house, I hold evening information sessions, and if all else fails, e-mail me and I’ll be happy to work something out. If a student wants to meet when I normally would take lunch, I’ll just take lunch slightly earlier or later that day. I would bet most counselors work the same way.</p>

<p>Regarding hand-holding and spoonfeeding, remember there is a big difference between hand-holding or spoonfeeding and guidance. I will not hand-hold my students. They are 17 and 18 years old and should be fully capable of applying to college. They are going to be in for a rude awakening in college if they can’t even manage the application process. This was reinforced when I actually had a Princeton admissions rep tell me that they actually look down on students who can’t manage the application process. If parents or counselors are calling with questions, calling to set up appointments, etc, it really makes the student look bad. They want to admit students that are mature enough and capable enough to handle the process themselves.</p>

<p>However, I do guide my students. I talk them through how to set up visits, what to do on visits, what types of schools might be a good fit for them, where to get applications, where to look for scholarships, taking the ACT/SAT, etc. I post available scholarships on the school website, but if a student wants an application for them they must stop in my office to pick one up. I do the guidance, the student has to do the work. I will step in if there’s a major issue - in fact, just yesterday I worked with a student and got on his Common Application to fix his school forms request for him because he kept trying to request and it wouldn’t link to me - it turned out to just be a typo on my e-mail address. I have also called admissions reps for waitlisted kids and done my best to advocate for them. But in general, the student is applying to college, not me.</p>

<p>Just some food for thought. I agree that some of you have had unacceptable experiences, and it’s so frustrating to me because that gives counselors a bad name everywhere. But please stop for a second and think about whether or not you are being reasonable. Your counselor is a regular person, with a life and family outside of school, and is entitled to the same job hours and lunch breaks as any professional. Their job is to guide your student (hence “guidance” counselor) - it is not to do the application work for the student. They probably don’t know absolutely everything, but who does? The college admissions landscape is constantly evolving, and I learn new things all the time.</p>

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<p>To Argentine (poster 65): colleges are fully aware that not each GC knows his/her students well. Their prime duty is to send forward the required school forms (transcript, school report which lists % free/reduced lunch, % grads, % college attendance, etc). If they happen to know the student, then their write up is fully welcome. Many do not and that’s understood by colleges who won’t penalize applicants due to this reality.</p>

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<p>Some colleges do require a LOR from a GC though, along with teacher LORs.</p>

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<p>The national merit program is pretty removed from the high school – the guidance counselor could have helped you find answers but I wouldn’t expect them to have all the information memorized any more than I’d expect a guidance counselor to have information about all of the deadlines and notification dates of all the colleges in the country. There are a lot of scholarships programs and colleges and the information is easily available online. I was national merit as well and I don’t think it ever occurred to me to have a conversation with my guidance counselor about it. If you got the scholarship, that means that your transcripts were sent (probably by your counselor) so the guidance counselor did what they needed to do.</p>

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<p>@HSCounselor81</p>

<p>I agree completely that GCs are most definitely entitled to lunch breaks and my issues with my son’s original GC was not the hours she worked but lack of REALLY, REALLY basic knowledge. My examples of PSAT and AP were just two of the frustrations I encountered, there were several others including issues over what course requirements were acceptible for the various diplomas granted by the state. In Indiana there are the Core 40, Academic Honors, and Technical Honors diplomas. Although the school works regularly with Core 40 and Academic Honors, they don’t focus on the technical honors diploma. I asked BASIC questions about what courses were offred to fulfill the requirements and not only could the GC not answer, but she was not even motivated to find the answers. I had to take it upon myself to pose my questions directly to our State Department of Education who responded asking why our school couldn’t give me the basic information I sought. When GCs don’t even understand the basics of the diplomas offered in the state they are working in there is a HUGE problem. When that GC left her position, she was replaced by the experienced junior high GC who was able to answer basic questions, get all the scholarship and application paperwork done acurately and timely, and provide the basic assistance to the students that they needed…that’s all I expect. I have witnessed both competence and incompetence and can definitely distinguish the two.</p>

<p>But if the problem is with the training received, then perhaps the training needs to be changed. Perhaps graduate programs need to have requirements to complete a course in college counselling, in the diploma requirements for their state, in basic knowledge that the GCs shoud have. GCs don’t need to be experts in the subjects by any means, but they do need to have a basic level of knowledge because even in schools where they are dealing with behavioral issues and academic problems, this is still an essential part of their jobs. </p>

<p>I have a younger sister who is an elem ed teacher, who received her Master’s in teaching, but I was and still am amazed by the simplicity of the courses she took to achieve a Master’s degree. Most of her courses were simply weekend seminars that required no type of evaluation, no tests of knowledge. I don’t know the requirements of most Master’s programs in education, but if they are similar, it is possible to earn you degree without ever demonstrating that you’ve gained any knowlege.</p>

<p>The problem may very well be those programs that are graduating ‘qualified’ individuals, but unless a problem is acknowledged, it will never be changed.</p>

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<p>“The national merit program is pretty removed from the high school – the guidance counselor could have helped you find answers but I wouldn’t expect them to have all the information memorized any more than I’d expect a guidance counselor to have information about all of the deadlines and notification dates of all the colleges in the country.”</p>

<p>I disagree. I would not expect info memorized, but definitely a more informed response. The NMS program is something that is done every year. OP stated there are students in his/her hs who participate every year. It’s an honor for the students as well as the school. To say “Oh, we’re still doing those? I didn’t know that. I though we’d stopped.” is weak, imo. The schools need to support all students, and provide guidance for all, not just those with difficulty, but those who excel as well.</p>

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<p>He actually seems very very nice and open to learning and trying. He did get out the hard copies of the GC recommendation right away. But, he has been working at the middle school level for several years. I really like it. I guess I will need to “train” him now! My daughter will be a senior next year. My son is the one who is applying now.</p>

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<p>HSCounselor81-</p>

<p>Some of the incredulity surrounding ignorance of the Common App may have to do with geography. I live in the Northeast where just about every school takes the Common App. Many, including our state flagship, are CA exclusive, meaning there’s no way to apply but to fill out the CA. For a counselor in our area not to know about the CA would be like not ever having heard of the SAT.</p>

<p>When I applied to NE colleges in the early 80’s the Common App was in use but not terribly common and most CA schools had their own applications as well. Now most Common App schools prefer online submissions through the CA. Two of the schools to which DS is applying waive fees entirely for CA online applicants.</p>

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<p>Although I definitely wish I had the opportunity to have a college counseling class as part of my graduate program, I don’t actually blame the university. It’s not a matter of bad training, as I actually had excellent training - just in a different area. I know some education graduate programs are weekend seminar type things, but mine definitely was not. It was a full-time, two-year commitment, with a great deal of research along with practical experience. I do have a MA in school counseing, not a MEd, so that might make a difference.</p>

<p>It really goes beyond the graduate programs, though, into the deeper definition of “school counselor.” ASCA, the national association that oversees school counseling, actually deems the word “guidance counselor” outdated and prefers “school counselor.” The ASCA national model does not focus on college counseling; if anything, it’s a slight sliver within academic and/or career counseling, but it’s not the focus by any means. The main focus is helping students be successful K-12: analyzing data to see where our students excel and struggle and addressing concerns that emerge from that, looking at and addressing social/emotional barriers to student success, and helping student explore their strengths and interests.</p>

<p>If you are really interested in the ASCA national model and what we are trained to do, there is a great summary here: <a href=“http://ascamodel.timberlakepublishing.com//Files/Executive%20Summary%203.0.pdf[/url]”>http://ascamodel.timberlakepublishing.com//Files/Executive%20Summary%203.0.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The problem is that the ASCA model doesn’t match the reality. In graduate school, we were taught that it’s our job to change the reality. However, we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place - if we don’t do the college counseling, who does? So then we’re stuck with no training trying to learn it on our own.</p>

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<p>^^ I agree that the ASCA model doesn’t match the reality in some schools. At my kids’ public high school, over 96% of graduates go to college, most of those to 4 year colleges. The school has social workers who deal with most of the social/emotional issues that the students have, and deans who deal with the behavioral problems. The job of the guidance counselor seems to be primarily to assist with course selection, steer kids to the proper services elsewhere in the school and assist with the college process. If they are not being trained for this in their college/graduate school programs, there must be a whole lot of on-the-job training going on. Fortunately most of our GCs have years of experience, although we still did not rely on them in the college process and did not use the GC for anything beyond writing the GC rec and forwarding the paperwork. I viewed it as my job, as a parent, to help my child find schools that were a good fit and figure out how to apply to them.</p>

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<p>At my daughters public school, the parent group did a great deal of college counseling, even getting kids out of class so we could check to see how they were doing with their applications.</p>

<p>We were really needed even though a great many students had planned for college for years, that isn’t who we were serving. Some students didnt start to think about college until junior year, and they often not only were first gen & didn’t have relatives who could guide them, they may have relatives who actively discouraged them, because they were needed to contribute to the household, through working/babysitting.</p>

<p>However, because of privacy issues we eventually had to curtail helping students as much, and instead had to point them to outside supports instead.</p>

<p>Her school also had several in house programs to help students, most were for minorities, but some were also for students who were first gen.
[College</a> Access Now](<a href=“http://www.collegeaccessnow.org/Areas/WhoWeServe/WhoWeServe.html]College”>http://www.collegeaccessnow.org/Areas/WhoWeServe/WhoWeServe.html)</p>