<p>Interesting thread – I always learn so much on CC.</p>
<p>Can the LOR be written by any GC? Or must it be submitted from the GC who handles college apps? DD’s school has four general counselors and one college counselor. DD has a good repoire with her assigned counselor, so would a letter from her be appropriate?</p>
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<p>As long as the high school is on board with the plan, the colleges typically don’t care which school official writes the recommendation.</p>
<p>My own son’s public high school has a policy that says that students can ask ANY administrator to write to their behalf, not just a guidance counselor.</p>
<p>And back when I worked at Smith, I recall that one high school sent a note with all transcripts that said something along the lines of, “We are a big high school with large counselor loads, so our counselors don’t write recommendations. Instead, we ask our students to submit an extra teacher reference.”</p>
<p>I think that most colleges would find this approach better than getting a generic rec from a counselor who clearly doesn’t know the kid. I remember plenty that said little more than, “Sarah is a conscientious student who has participated in [activities listed on application] and who will succeed at the college of her choice.”</p>
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<p>After close to a decade on this forum, I have yet to read a compelling reason to change my opinion that the weakest link in the entire admission process is none other than … the poorly labled guidance counselor. With the exception of the tony schools in the country that have developed superior programs in the area, the majority of stories are mostly comedies of error. </p>
<p>It is entirely acceptable for schools to have (re)dedicated the work of the GCs to a number of more pressing issues, but the reality is that this does NOT help the students at all. It is also acceptable to blame the lack of preparation in the graduate programs, but then again, that is not different from the usually abysmal preparation of the K-12 academic forces that focuses on pedagogy, self-esteem, and little of pragmatic usefulness. Simply stated, our schools are expected to become competitive IN SPITE of being led by poorly trained and poorly educated teachers and administrators usually culled from the worst academic factories in the nation. </p>
<p>Considering the above, I am not sure why anyone would expect much from the office that is easily the lowest on the totem pole at high schools. The functions of guidance counselors are usually reserved the most junior or most … senior administrators that have been cast away from more important duties. </p>
<p>Schools, at least the ones who pretend to care, should realize that drastic changes in the function are needed, and colleges should understand that they should STOP relying on this weak link to process applications. Parents should be warned about this deficiency shortly after entering high school, and preferably before graduating from middle school. </p>
<p>A lot of stories here have been about GCs refusing to do much before the senior year. The reality is that even a start during the junior is much TOO LATE. The college application is the end of a road, but one that needs to be prepared during the freshmen and sophomore years. </p>
<p>The saddest part of all this mediocrity is that it could EASILY be avoided through a small investment in a COMPREHENSIVE handbook that would be given to all freshmen. While the college admission is a moving landscape, it is also moving at a very slow pace, and pretending the opposite in a canard. From the day I joined in 2003, very, very little has changed, and nothing that could be considered impossible to keep updated with a small revision in the summer. </p>
<p>It should take fewer than 20 hours for any GC to produce such handbook during the extended vacation time. So much for the overworked admins!</p>
<p>When I told my guidance counselor I was thinking of applying to MIT he said “The Massachussetts Institute of Technology? I’ve never heard of it, what state is it in? You should really look at schools people have heard of.”</p>
<p>Of course I was applying from Canada, but it still cracked me up given that he was the counselor in charge of applications to US schools.</p>
<p>My own counselor I’ve been mostly happy with. What I mainly don’t agree with is the way our school assigns counselors. With 1950 students, (-480 per grade) we have four counselors. Each counselor is assigned to one year and follow them through high school. I think that’s entirely unfair and illogical way of distributing the workload. It’s a nice idea to have one counselor that a student can “get-to-know,” but why not assign a counselor a portion of students from each grade level? Of course all of our counselors are busy, but having the extra burden of college apps every four years just causes problems with getting stuff out before the deadline.</p>
<p>The only major problem I have with my counselor is he rarely listens to the person speaking to him. He’s the sort of person who zones out of what someone is saying because he’s focused on what he thinks needs to be done. When I try to explain why something would be unacceptable, he nods then tells me what he is going to do, which exactly what he was going to do before I said anything. It takes a very long time to get a point across.</p>
<p>For example, I gave him a form for a college which had to be filled out by the counselor and sent in with a transcript, on Tuesday, and told him it needed to be sent out by the end of the week (no recommendation, just data I probably could have entered myself, but that’s not allowed). I come to him on Friday to make sure he’s sent it out. He tells me it is in his pile of stuff-to-do and it will be out on Thursday (Nov. 15). I repeat it needs to be out today. He agrees to do it (if he didn’t know me so well, I doubt he would have done it). I get called in the his office at the end of the day and he gives it to me and says it wasn’t a big deal because this college was due on the 15th. I told him its due by the 15th, received and processed, not postmarked (which I told him originally). He said “oh,” and told me he could mail it on his way home (since the mail from our school had already gone out), I told him I would mail it. There is no way I would trust him to remember.</p>
<p>The only problem I’ve had, as illustrated above, is he’s somewhat dense when students try to speak with him (I’ve had a number of experiences) and not very organized. He is also a little too quick to offer advice when he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. (For example, when I first gave him the form he told me the school would send him an electric form to fill out once I sent in my application. I knew for a fact this was not true and told him. He told me to do something with certainty based on a guess he had on what most colleges do. Its not a good habit to be in when dealing with strict application deadline and policies).</p>
<p>That being said, he’s a genuinely nice person who does want to help students. His college advice would probably consist of local colleges and the state flagship, and I don’t expect anything else of him. The counseling center has some books which show good colleges around the US for whatever degree/career you’re looking for. Nobody at my school expects the counselors to be there for career guidance or college advice besides the basic starting-off points. </p>
<p>I think ‘bright students’ should be bright enough to take control of research and deadline managing for themselves. Our counselors have larger concerns than just college-admissions. Yes, it’d be nice if I didn’t feel like I had to check-up on my counselor to make sure required forms get in, but as long as he’s not being unreasonably stubborn (like some other posters have described), I think of it as my responsibility.</p>
<p>TL;DR
I don’t expect school counselors to know much about colleges beyond how to fill out a required form.</p>
<p>^ that is an odd system.Our counselors are assigned to students by last name. A-H to so and so, I-P to so and so, etc. In this way kids have the same counselor throughout high school and can deal with the same family even longer if there are siblings. I like it.</p>
<p>For whatever reason, I think that parents and students are led to believe that GC’s are responsible for more than they actually are. It would be nice if someone would let families know this during freshman year. It was also a surprise to find out that they deal with psych/social issues, shouldn’t a social worker be doing that? Seems unfair that they have so much piled on their plates. I am sure others are surprised when they find this out as well. I don’t mind doing the work. But its sad that others don’t realize this until its too late. Thank God I found CC when I did and have been doing the work since freshman year or dd14 would be in a world of trouble right now.</p>
<p>Scary bad.</p>
<p>“I don’t expect school counselors to know much about colleges beyond how to fill out a required form.” - LonelyHapax</p>
<p>Sad commentary. I agree with xiggi.</p>
<p>Too funny…</p>
<p>Oh my. Too funny. Good luck if you apply. Super selective</p>
<p>“GC and MIT
Too funny…”</p>
<p>Poster is from Canada, making it slightly less scary.</p>
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<p>Xiggi, you know I got mad love for you and we will just agree to disagree on this topic because you like most others assume that you know what the GC job is suppose to be and not what the GC main responsibility of the job ** actually is**.</p>
<p>In response to your statement, it is absolutely not true (or perhaps that is how it is done in Texas). In the NYC DOE, if you are unsuccessful as an AP/Principal or you do not receive tenure, you go back to your last tenured position. Unless your last tenured position was a state certified GC (where the majority of administrators are former teachers) a junior administrator or senior administrator does not get cast away to becoming a GC.</p>
<p>Scary. I think you should be monitoring very closely. I wonder what else he hasn’t heard about?</p>
<p>My child’s school doesn’t give the PSAT until 3:30 in the afternoon after a long school day full of classes. Somehow I don’t think they view the PSAT as an important test. I was disappointed with this policy.</p>
<p>^First and foremost it’s a disservice to the students to give the test at the end of the day, imo. The students deserve to give it their best shot. Our school gives it first thing in the morning. Not only that, but doesn’t the school want the honor of being a school with x number of NM finalists? Schools in my area post the names of NM finalists on their boards outside in front of the schools, post names in the school papers as well as local newspapers. The finalists have their names engraved and added to a plaque with the names of all prior finals and it is hung in the school lobby. They are also honored at a few different awards nights. It is a big deal and should be treated as such.</p>
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<p>Sybbie, as you know, the love is most definitely mutual. In addition, you should know that I have nothing than the most profound respect for you and your knowledge. And, I also know that many of my comments regarding the GC profession must be a source of disagreement for us. </p>
<p>Over the years, I believe to have learned that things appear to be different in NYC than in many places around the country. This said, I will gladly admit that my position are biased by experiences in Texas and California, and probably by the years of reading stories on CC.</p>
<p>Regarding the job description and job responsibilities, I do not think I have disputed that GCs are expected to spend more time on issues unrelated to college admission than on issues of well-being of students and a slew of other administrative functions. My negative comments are in fact directly related to the part of their job that is most often discussed here on CC.</p>
<p>My main point here is that the system --as I know it-- seems to be unfair to all parties involved. While it is unfair to the parents and their children, I also believe that it is unfair that great expectations are placed on the shoulders of GC, especially if they have to guide hundreds of students per capita. And, this is why I believe that this issue should be presented to parents as early as possible; just as I believe that the need to self-educate has become quite important for parents and students. After all, there are no miracles!</p>
<p>Xiggi,</p>
<p>You are right; it is an unfair system for all involved. With the move to a small school model and having one GC in the building handling everything from freshman recruitment to post secondary planning, it is in the GC’s best interest to be come well versed in college planning and the application process. If we are going to create a college going culture, minimally there needs to be systems in place when the student walks into high school for the first time.</p>
<p>There was a time that in order to be a GC, one had to minimally have 3 years of experience as a teacher or equivalent. Not to knock young GCs but there are many whose only experience with college admissions is when they filled out a college application. By the same token there are older GC’s who have absolutely no concept of college planning (I happen to work with a woman who has been a counselor for 15 years and never counseled a student about college). However, there are GCs who take the initiative to stay abreast of changes in the profession and the things that they need to have in their tool box if they are going to remain viable in the DOE.</p>
<p>Change is coming, as principals are now responsible for post secondary planning (not every student attends college after high school) at their schools. Post secondary planning covers college, GED /alternative education programs for students who miss graduation, work, military, ACCESS (formerly VESID) services for students with disabilities and other training programs.<br>
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This will push back to GC’s because the principal his/her livelihood, whether or not a school remains open will depend on the school having a GC who can do not only work with helping a student graduate, but some one who can not only do post secondary planning, but do it well. Schools are now being evaluated on post secondary results, college readiness and percentage of students still enrolled in college 2 years post grad from high school (school districts will be fed the information from the national clearing house). The grade for post secondary planning will be 10 to 15% of the report card grade (just enough to move a school from grade A to grade B or push a school from passing to failing). </p>
<p>At the NYC DOE, the report is called “Where Are They Now” and gives the following information; # of students in the cohort, number of student in the cohort who graduated (4, 5 and 6 year grad rates), number of students who attended college immediately following graduation, SUNY 2/4 year, CUNY 2/4 year, private in state, private OOS, work, Military.</p>
<p>The NYC DOE now offers a professional development opportunity offered by Options Institute in partnership with the NYC Department of Education in Effective Postsecondary Planning: Supporting Access and Success for ALL Students,. The training, consisting of a series of six full-day sessions is currently offered at no cost to college counselors/advisors in NYC public schools. </p>
<p>Another thing on the horizon is to have at least one GC dedicated to overseeing college readiness, college access and post secondary planning. The next mayor says that the city will need to hire more qualified GCs to make this happen.</p>
<p>In GA, we are like New York, our counselors have to be certified. The challenge is that the clear priority for GA high schools is to keep kids in school. With NCLB and now with Race to the Top, the pressure has been upped exponentially. If a teacher or administrator wants to be a counselor, they have to get the proper certification and then apply for the job.</p>
<p>About 10 years ago, GA started funding Graduation Coaches whose main responsibility was keeping kids in school. While the quality of these folks varied, for the schools that got strong people in the job, counselors were at least freed up a bit to work on other things. However, state funding cuts eliminated this position and we are back where we started from.</p>
<p>Given that the overwhelming number of students stay close to home for college, I think it is reasonable to expect parents who have other visions for their children, or the students themselves, to own the process. Our counselors do just fine for the students who want to stay in state or really in the Southeast. They actually do well with the scholarships at those schools. They struggle when a student walks in and says, I would like to major in Latin and go to a mid size school in the Midwest. (And given kids today, I don’t think that happens that much anymore. The internet is a pretty useful tool.)</p>
<p>Our tax dollars deserve more than use the internet. Unfortunately, that’s what many people are stuck with. Very sad for those students and parents. They deserve qualified knowledgeable professionals. Our school has a Principal, Assistant Principal and School Psychologist, as well as a Learning Disability Center which allows the GCs to assist with the college application process.</p>